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  #121  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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The thing is though. It doesn't ride better than a DRZ400. Better fuel economy due to fuel injection is all I can see. I can't see any reason for buying one as there are two bikes in every category which are better and half the price. CCM had a chance to provide something everyone had been crying out for for years. Instead they obviously interviewed some idiots in front of Starbucks and built something which is a bit pointless which no one is going to want to shell out for.

Unless their strategy is just to sell it as 'something different' to people with deep pockets for a few years.


Why can't someone make a Japanese 500-650CC Single cylinder bike with a steel frame, simple electrics and fuel injection. Good suspension with good wheels, a comfortable seat, good lights and a small cockpit with a realistic screen.

Imagine a lightweight 660 Tenere with good suspension ??

Or a KTM 690 adventure which you could trust not to be a headache.

Surely the market is out there for someone. These bikes were super popular in the 80's and 90's even in their basic form.
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Last edited by *Touring Ted*; 19 Oct 2015 at 11:14.
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  #122  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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But then came Starbucks and ruined it for everyone.

Best bet now is the WR300R.
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  #123  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
The thing is though. It doesn't ride better than a DRZ400. Better fuel economy due to fuel injection is all I can see. I can't any reason for buying one as there are two bikes in every category which are better and half the price. CCM had a chance to provide something everyone had been crying out for for years. Instead they obviously interviewed some idiots in front of Starbucks and built something which is a bit pointless which no one is going to want to shell out for.
Yea, CCM's market research obviously aimed towards high end of RTW travelers. I'm sure guys like Colebatch, Pyndon (Lyndon Poskett) and a handful of other royal family members love the CCM, and can afford it.

These wanna-be Dakar racers ride to Mongolia like it's a rally. To each his own. Pyndon & Colebatch are both skilled fabricators and designers, both their business's are spin offs from their travel adventure fame created on the internet.

Both have legions of Leg Humper followers on ADV Rider. Pyndon and Colebatch fabricate modified BMW's and KTM 690's that end up costing in the £20,000 range. (New Sibirsky Extreme bike build | Adventure Rider)

So, the CCM is reasonable by comparison. Colebatch builds bikes for himself, Pyndon sells to actual Dakar racers and well off "enthusiasts".

Whomever CCM consulted for inspiration/knowledge ... IMO, they've aimed at a rather limited, affluent group. Many young travelers starting out would want something cheap as chips, don't care if it's of race pedigree. They don't even care if it breaks down. All part of the adventure and all. Most aren't rally racers.

But I'm not sure anyone could build a bike in Britain for much less than CCM has, using quality components. After all, so much of what we see today is made in either Thailand, Korea or China. It may say Made In Japan, but the Japanese now source TONS of parts from China and produce many models in Thailand and Korea.

It's true the CCM motor wears a BMW badge, but is originally a Rotax design that has always been manufactured in Taiwan by Kymco. Kymco make Excellent products.

Obviously, with BMW's abrupt cancellation of the 450 race bike, Kymco/BMW were left with possibly thousands of 450 engines stuck in a warehouse somewhere. I would love to hear insiders story on this and what sort of deal CCM got on the Engines. Pennies on the pound?

But the rest of the bike is NOT going to be cheap. Can't be. No way can a tiny producer match costs/volumes and selling prices with big manufacturers.

So YES ... the CCM is expensive. But I understand why and don't believe they are ripping anyone off ... and probably just treading water at this point. I hope they survive!

What's worrisome is the limited scope/focus of the GP450 as it seems a bit limited as a versatile overall world travel machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
Unless their strategy is just to sell it as 'something different' to people with deep pockets for a few years.
Yes, I think you've hit on it there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
Why can't someone make a Japanese 500-650CC Single cylinder bike with a steel frame, simple electrics and fuel injection. Good suspension with good wheels, a comfortable seat, good lights and a small cockpit with a realistic screen.

Imagine a lightweight 660 Tenere with good suspension ??

Or a KTM 690 adventure which you could trust not to be a headache.

Surely the market is out there for someone. These bikes were super popular in the 80's and 90's even in their basic form.
It's possible Honda will come out with a "CRF450L" or some such ... or Yamaha a "WR450R", but both would no doubt need lots of Mods to make good travel bikes. The Japanese will never produce a "ready to go" RTW type travel bike.
It would always need mods.

As of now, most end up making their own version of the above using an old tech bike like my DR650 or a XR650L, KLR or XT600 or 660. Not so bad really.
It's a cheap way to go and plenty of good donor bikes around.

DRZ400S is a good example. For a couple grand in mods its nearly as good as a KTM or CCM ... and probably more reliable down the road.

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  #124  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog View Post
These wanna-be Dakar racers ride to Mongolia like it's a rally.
To be fair, Lyndon is an actual Dakar racer. His best result was a stage 9th in the 2013 Dakar. On top of that a 1st place overall in the Mongolia rally and a 2nd overall in the Baja Rally.
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  #125  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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New apples compared with old pears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
In the absence of recent riding reports for the GP450, here's a comparison review of nearly two years ago.
http://ccm-motorcycles.com/_includes...ews-Review.pdf

Postings still talking about bikes that have not been on sale, new, in the EU market for some 8-10-12 years.

The EU market is probably big enough for current CCM GP450 rates of production but, yes, it will be offered into certain markets such as north America - if I am right in this thought about rates of production then there is no need to be in a hurry to break into new sales elsewhere.

At least the linked article compares 3 bikes that are for sale as new, current models; and from two of the big 4 Jap manufs favoured by many.

Why not compare the GP450 with a new KTM Freeride or .......................your own choice of currently available new bike?
(e.g. AJP "whatever" for instance).

Incidentally, CCM have remained in business this time around, via:-
CCM Motorcycles Parts GP4S0 adventure Dakar Crossers mt230 ATV Racing Scramble Bikes

Bespoke: means something like "lithe, flexible, responsive to customers' needs, designed to order"? I don't know, I haven't bothered to check the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary, but, for sure, the CCM business model is not based on a mass production line in a factory knocking out UJMs by the multi-1000.
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  #126  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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New bike comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog View Post
Yea, CCM's market research obviously aimed towards high end of RTW travelers.

Alternately, when you rely on focus groups and other market research you get a new Honda AT.
I've just posted the link to the Honda marketing hype here:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...6-8#post518208

Shucks, here it is:
Honda Worldwide | October 16, 2015 "16YM HONDA CRF1000L Africa Twin"


The GP450 should do pretty well when the testers get around to writing a comparison of it with the CRF1000L in place of the CRF250L.
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  #127  
Old 16 Oct 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duibhceK View Post
To be fair, Lyndon is an actual Dakar racer. His best result was a stage 9th in the 2013 Dakar. On top of that a 1st place overall in the Mongolia rally and a 2nd overall in the Baja Rally.
Not to take cred from Lyndon ... reference is more to the buyers of such bikes who are NOT actual racers ... and for all we know won't go beyond Starbuck's.

46th place in the 2013 Dakar rally is certainly impressive. No question a great rider. Great finish in the Baja rally too getting 2nd behind Hengeveld (former Team Honda Hero, multiple Baja 1000 winner, now at retirement age)
I wonder if Lyndon will enter the Baja 1000? (the real Baja race!)

Big entry fee for that rally ($2,100). He must have generous sponsors.

Point is, Lyndon's meticulously prepped KTM racers as a travel bike is not for everyone ... not for me, even if I could afford it ... all that Dakar stuff just looks silly ... unless you ARE a racer going racing! (road book, GPS holder, multiple tanks) Overkill IMO.
But it's a big world! All kinds hit the road, from guys doing "NO budget" trips on a 100cc Postie bike ... to Trust Fund kits going Carte Blanche. There's room for everyone. My favorite guys ride around in a $400K UniMog campers ... they always have cold on board!
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  #128  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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There's an interesting thread on AdvRider from a British guy riding the US TAT (Trans America Trail) on a GP450. He sounds an average sort of rider rather than an off road god, and talks honestly about some of the problems he encountered.

I was one of the many that CCM spoke to as part of their market research. One of my suggestions (and maybe from others as well) was the stealth tool tube which ended up as the rather expensive false silencer. One suggestion of mine which wasn't acted upon was a wider ratio gearbox and minkyhead from ABR has done some work changing internal ratios.

I did have a test ride eventually but it was a bit disorganised, the accompanying 'guide' rider didn't know the area, so it was on tarmac with the exception of a couple of hundred metres down a lane. So I ended up buying a second KTM 690 Enduro which has proved ultra reliable.
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  #129  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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Homologation

Going back a few pages to the US homologation comments, I'm a former brake homologation engineer and would comment as follows;

The regs are fundanentally different. Any rest of the world data is useless so you need to employ locals.

There are components you have to change which means cartel pricing for which a small European manufacturer is painful.

Septic lawyers are scary and highly prevalent. As you mostly self certify you stand alone, no government agencies in self defence mode.

I wouldn't sell paperclips in California in case someone choked on them. CCM would be wise to fill other markets first.

Andy
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  #130  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
There's an interesting thread on AdvRider from a British guy riding the US TAT (Trans America Trail) on a GP450. He sounds an average sort of rider rather than an off road god, and talks honestly about some of the problems he encountered.
.
My memory of that thread is that he had a mechanical failure and he rang the factory here in the UK; they responded and air freighted a replacement part to him in the States.
In essence, CCM were listening to one of their customers and supported him during his ride - that appears to be a "bespoke" service.

He has also had some form of electrical issue(s) which may have fried one or more battteries.
Perhaps a loose/bad electrical connector somewhat as per the XT660Z reputation??

Thereafter, he came up against the pyschological issues involved in riding off highway alone for weeks at a time and decided to call it a day and perhaps return next year to continue his ride.
Or, maybe he ran out of time?
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  #131  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
Going back a few pages to the US homologation comments, I'm a former brake homologation engineer and would comment as follows;

The regs are fundanentally different. Any rest of the world data is useless so you need to employ locals.

There are components you have to change which means cartel pricing for which a small European manufacturer is painful.

Septic lawyers are scary and highly prevalent. As you mostly self certify you stand alone, no government agencies in self defence mode.

I wouldn't sell paperclips in California in case someone choked on them. CCM would be wise to fill other markets first.

Andy
There's a reality check.

Naturally, The impending TTIP will solve all of this.
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  #132  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
Why not compare the GP450 with a new KTM Freeride or .......................your own choice of currently available new bike?
(e.g. AJP "whatever" for instance).
Yea, good point. I've noted just HOW WELL sales of both current KTM and Husqvarna dual sports models are doing sales wise here in the USA. Most models sell in the $10,000 USD range. (plus or minus a couple grand) So not that far off the CCM GP450.

KTM sales of EXC models (the road legal version) have been very strong for years here ... and now ... KTM claim that demand for the new Husqvarna bikes has caught them by surprise. Doing really well!

By extension, if there are enough riders with that sort of money ... then it's not inconcievable that CCM could make a go of it here.

Bikes like KTM's 500EXC are hard to find for sale ... they sell out very quickly, then you wait till next year to get one. So, despite hassle it would be to pass homologation into USA, probably worth it in the long run. California alone represents something like the 5th or 6th strongest economy in the world.
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  #133  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
Going back a few pages to the US homologation comments, I'm a former brake homologation engineer and would comment as follows;

The regs are fundanentally different. Any rest of the world data is useless so you need to employ locals.

There are components you have to change which means cartel pricing for which a small European manufacturer is painful.

Septic lawyers are scary and highly prevalent. As you mostly self certify you stand alone, no government agencies in self defence mode.

I wouldn't sell paperclips in California in case someone choked on them. CCM would be wise to fill other markets first.

Andy
It's true small companies have a hard time with homologation. I've visited the Triumph factory were they explained the 3 versions of the same bike they were building on same production line. They showed us the data tag that indicated which market it was destined for. Each bike had slightly different components. IIRC, it was one for UK/EU, another for USA/California and yet another for the rest of the world. The Japanese do the same.

BTW, most ALL OEM's now build (and have done for years) a "50 State" bike, which means its California legal as well as legal in the other 49 states. So not a big deal for big companies. They are set up for it and have the system sussed out. Problem is ... things change every year!

You may choose not to sell paperclips in California ... but hard to ignore such a huge economy and a state with most motorcycle registrations of ALL US states.
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  #134  
Old 17 Oct 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
My memory of that thread is that he had a mechanical failure and he rang the factory here in the UK; they responded and air freighted a replacement part to him in the States.
In essence, CCM were listening to one of their customers and supported him during his ride - that appears to be a "bespoke" service.
Yes, fairly impressive, though I think they managed to bodge a part from another bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
He has also had some form of electrical issue(s) which may have fried one or more battteries. Perhaps a loose/bad electrical connector somewhat as per the XT660Z reputation??
Yes, I suffered with the loose connection on the Tenere rectifier. I had to fly home from southern Spain and return a couple of months later to pick the bike up again after the dealer replaced the entire wiring loom under warranty. They paid for my flights as well, which was quite fortunate as I had intended to leave the bike in Spain for a few months anyway. LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
Thereafter, he came up against the pyschological issues involved in riding off highway alone for weeks at a time and decided to call it a day and perhaps return next year to continue his ride. Or, maybe he ran out of time?
As I said, he was a normal guy, no offroad god, so no criticism of his decision. I am used to riding solo and am equipped with my Sudoko books, music on my iPod, films on my MacBook and so on. Others are not used to the solitude and find it difficult.
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  #135  
Old 18 Oct 2015
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Pejorative bodge

I don't recall it as being a "bodge"; the customer's needs were met, pretty quickly and across the Atlantic, and he was satisfied with that service from CCM. That is my memory of the riders' postings at that time.
If he himself had used the term bodge I believe I might have remembered such, and the Advdribble masses might well have descended upon the thread also.

Whatever CCM actually did to meet their customer's requirement was not stated as far as I recall, beyond the provision of the necessary new part - I can't really be bothered to wade through the multitude of dross that accompanies threads in Advdrivel.
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