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  #76  
Old 31 Mar 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
The great thing about the vast majority of this HUBB thread, compared to the ABR thread that was linked in post #56 is that here people can discuss and disagree without people having tantrums about it...if you go against the forum's (self proclaimed) opinion leaders' topic for the next love-in, they get really shirty.
Yeah, tell me about it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog View Post
...off the top of my head I would pick from the following road legal bikes to include in the Comparo to the CCM:

Husqvarna TE310 (made by KTM)
KTM 450EXC
KTM 350EXC
Yamaha 250R
Beta 450 dual sport (road legal)

Also in contention?
Honda 450RR Rally Bike (if available)
Suzuki DRZ400S
The list you've given above is great for an afternoon's dirt riding, but what Minkyhead and others (including me) are looking for is a lightweight adventure tourer.

A bike that's designed to be used for long distance trips, able to cruise at the legal limit, weather protection, capable of taking luggage for a long trip, decent fuel range, good lighting and as agile as possible off tarmac.

So I don't think most of the bikes you've quoted above are comparable to the GP450. The competitor that comes up time and time again is the KTM 690 R. Both have long service intervals (10,000km for the KTM and 8,000 for the CCM), both can carry touring luggage. The GP450 has the edge on fuel capacity and touring fairing, the 690 R has the edge on performance.

I had an inconclusive test ride of the GP450 (road tyres, only 500m of off tarmac, no luggage). But after a bad experience with BMW I'm not prepared to be a 'beta tester' again for a new range of bikes so I went with the 690 R and last month concluded a four-week 7,800 km tour using a practically standard bike with zero mishaps.

I wish CCM well and might well be interested in the GP450 a couple of years down the line.

.
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  #77  
Old 31 Mar 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
The list you've given above is great for an afternoon's dirt riding, but what Minkyhead and others (including me) are looking for is a lightweight adventure tourer.
I just read Minkyhead's comments on his CCM on that other ADV forum ... good stuff. But seems to me he's saying a well fettled DRZ400S could match the CCM tit for tat (and at 1/4 the cost) ... might even out last it? Dozens of DRZ400S riders have done cross continent and beyond. No news there. The WR250R is also a contender and is PROVEN ADV Travel bike.

The bikes listed are ALL street legal bikes ... but would they be "as good" as the CCM on long runs with lots of highway, fully loaded? Dunno? Lots depends on set up.

I'm fairly certain the DRZ400S and WR could do it ... and, if you're now including the 690, then why not add the DR650 in the mix as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
A bike that's designed to be used for long distance trips, able to cruise at the legal limit, weather protection, capable of taking luggage for a long trip, decent fuel range, good lighting and as agile as possible off tarmac.

So I don't think most of the bikes you've quoted above are comparable to the GP450.
Those are good points but as I stated, we know the DRZ can do it ... and the WR250R too.

Many have done tours fully loaded and reports are good on both. Don't know about the Husky's or KTM's but reports on the new Beta dual sports is very good so far. And realistically, the CCM ain't got no cred as of yet. So it's really still in the "wait and see" phase, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
The competitor that comes up time and time again is the KTM 690 R. Both have long service intervals (10,000km for the KTM and 8,000 for the CCM), both can carry touring luggage. The GP450 has the edge on fuel capacity and touring fairing, the 690 R has the edge on performance.
If KTM 690 can match CCM off road...then perhaps CCM have work to do!

Having ridden the 690 On and Off road I know what it is and what it isn't. It's not a full on Enduro trail bike, and in my estimation the CCM should be the Better bike off road, yes?
On road, of course the KTM 690 has a big advantage. No contest there ... with longevity being the only question.

In all this we have to calculate value and costs ... and of course intention. How much better is a £8K CCM over buying a used DRZ400S for £2000 and putting another £1000 into it? And how much will the new CCM owner put into his bike? No bike is perfect from new. So that £8000 figure could go UP.

You could do the same comparison with a DR650 vs. KTM 690. I could buy 3 used DR650's for the cost of one well set up 690.

No bikes last forever ... I prefer cheap, cheerful ... and expendable. Real travel bikes live a rough and unpredictable life ... and some come to a sad end. I'd rather lose my £2000 DR650 or DRZ400, then a £8000 CCM or 690.
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  #78  
Old 31 Mar 2015
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It's illogical to compare the cost of any new bike against the cost of secondhand machines, the new bike bound to lose out and I don't see how that fact advances this discussion at all? By all means make that comparison several years down the line when there are secondhand GP450s to work with math with.

I don't think the DRZ400 has been sold in the UK for years.

And once you start bringing the DR650 into the argument you are no longer talking about lightweight, any number of bikes fit into the weight bracket of 30kg over the GP450 weight.

I don't know anything about the WR250, but are you sure that it could stand up to 70-80mph motorway cruising? i know my XR400 was stressed at those speeds.

I said the 690 R has the edge on performance, I wasn't implying anything on the off tarmac ability. In fact I don't know how the 690R and GP450 compare off tarmac.

But I think you are coming from the wrong angle. Yes the KTM 450 EXC would undoubtedly be better off tarmac than either the 690 R or the GP450, but the GP450 isn't meant to be an offroad god, it's supposed to be a lightweight adventure tourer with decent off tarmac ability, something that the 450 EXC would not be good at.

So...
- lightweight
- ability to take full luggage load
- good fuel range
- suitable for long distance trips (service interval)
- able to cruise at the legal limit
- good weather protection
- good lighting
- agile off tarmac
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  #79  
Old 31 Mar 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
I don't know anything about the WR250, but are you sure that it could stand up to 70-80mph motorway cruising?
Yes, it can. I own one and use it extensively for touring. I have added a larger tank, uprated the springs and put on soft panniers. With its 10K service interval, 48K valve adjustment interval and general build quality, I'd dare say it's a very competent adventure touring bike.
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  #80  
Old 31 Mar 2015
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That's good then. The service interval is high and it's extremely light at just 118kg including oil and fuel.

But I just checked the price of the WR250 in the UK and it's £7,249 plus registration fees. So once you start making mods for additional fuel or weather protection you're starting to approach the GP450 price.

Nobody seems to have done a big touring trip yet with the GP450 and that will be the test. You'd have thought CCM would have lent one out...
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  #81  
Old 31 Mar 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
It's illogical to compare the cost of any new bike against the cost of secondhand machines, the new bike bound to lose out and I don't see how that fact advances this discussion at all? By all means make that comparison several years down the line when there are secondhand GP450s to work with math with.
Illogical? No, not really. Just reality based. Money ALWAYS matters! Anyone shopping for a "new" bike will be looking at both New and Used examples, yes? And in fact, very few end up buying new, most buy used.

Sure, they will look at ALL the bikes on offer ... and a few do choose to buy a brand new bike. But the fact is ... most riders buy a used machine. As many have pointed out ... as nice as the CCM is ...£8000 is a lot for an unproved bike from a company with a spotty history. Is that illogical?

I wasn't aware Suzuki pulled the DRZ from it's UK line up. I see used ones going on HUBB, so assumed it was still around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
And once you start bringing the DR650 into the argument you are no longer talking about lightweight, any number of bikes fit into the weight bracket of 30kg over the GP450 weight.
Since you brought up the 690 I just tossed out the DR650. BTW, it's the lightest dual sport in the 650 class ...except for the KTM 690.

It also covers ALL the parameters you've laid out ... and then some. Yes, even off road ability. Unless you plan your RTW trip to be entirely made up of World Enduro level single track, then a well prepared DR650 hangs in just fine on 90% of dirt tracks one is likely to ride ... and it's a lot tougher than many other bikes I could name.
Just ask the boys down under.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
I don't know anything about the WR250, but are you sure that it could stand up to 70-80mph motorway cruising? i know my XR400 was stressed at those speeds.
I've only test ridden one myself.
But many riders claim it's not bad on highway. (would not be my first choice for that specific task ... and it is expensive for a 250, but a very popular bike over all ... and well proven) New for New, about half the price of CCM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
I said the 690 R has the edge on performance, I wasn't implying anything on the off tarmac ability. In fact I don't know how the 690R and GP450 compare off tarmac.
Neither do I. When you said "performance" I assumed both ON and OFF road ... like it said on your list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
But I think you are coming from the wrong angle. Yes the KTM 450 EXC would undoubtedly be better off tarmac than either the 690 R or the GP450, but the GP450 isn't meant to be an offroad god, it's supposed to be a lightweight adventure tourer with decent off tarmac ability, something that the 450 EXC would not be good at.
I tend to agree here of course ... but unless we've seen someone "trick out" a 450exc fully, we can't really know what could be done.

(BTW, speaking of "wrong angle"? I never mentioned a word about the KTM 450EXC, only listed it as a possible)

But ... the 450exc is a road legal bike and by law, has to be able to carry a passenger, so perhaps the sub frame is strong enough for luggage? Sure, gearing, range, comfort, elec. output and LOTS of the other issues to sort ... but I contend it could be done, but at a fair cost. $$$$ (not worth it IMO)

The Beta 450 or 550 on the other hand is said to be more civilized, perhaps more adaptable to a more tarmac based ADV machine? Have to wait on this one, it's a fairly new model.

Granted ... the CCM sort of have this niche to itself ... for now. Not many as flexible with good attributes for both Dirt, street, touring and travel. But IMO most riders, after doing research, will not buy it and will buy something used and Japanese instead.
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  #82  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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I don't think we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

The CCM GP450 is (currently) only available new. So if you are going to usefully compare it to other bikes it makes sense that they are new bikes or at least used bikes of the same value. And there's not much point comparing the GP450 with bikes that aren't available new in the UK, such as the DR650 or DRZ400. Not sure the Beta 450/550 are available either.

The WR250 isn't "new for new about half the price of a GP450", it's £7,249 and then has to have larger tank and fairing to bring it up to GP450 equivalence. BTW, I don't understand your comment, "I've only test ridden one myself" when you said earlier that you had bought an Acerbis tank for your WR250?

The 450EXC doesn't have pillion pegs and is registered as a solo. The perceived wisdom on the KTM forum is that the subframe isn't strong enough for a pillion which gives me concern about the stresses of riding off tarmac with heavy luggage and camping gear.

CCM acknowledges that the 690 R is their main competitor. When I last spoke to the company the young sales lady was claiming she had many 690 owners trading in their bikes against a new GP450. Not sure how much of this was sales talk.

Quote:
IMO most riders, after doing research, will not buy it and will buy something used and Japanese instead.
I think you've got this the wrong way round. Most people who are seriously considering buying a GP450 aren't likely to then turn around and buy a ten year old £2,000 Suzuki to do up. I'm not 'knocking' any of the alternative bikes, or the idea of buying inexpensive secondhand bikes, I'm sure they are all pretty good in their niche, but it's a different niche than buying a brand new lightweight adventure touring bike.

What still concerns me though, is Chris's comments about handling. And the lack of any reports of serious trips with luggage.

.
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  #83  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
The WR250 isn't "new for new about half the price of a GP450", it's £7,249 and then has to have larger tank and fairing to bring it up to GP450 equivalence. BTW, I don't understand your comment, "I've only test ridden one myself" when you said earlier that you had bought an Acerbis tank for your WR250?
Me thinks you're mixed up here ... Maybe you're thinking of my former WR250F? (sold a year ago) It did have an Acerbis tank ... F version not road legal, totally different bike from WR250R (F.I., different motor and lots more plus 20 kgs. heavier than F model)

I rode the WR250R on fire roads for about a 1/2 hour, did a bit of two track and 10 minutes of tarmac. That's it. (friends bike, never owned one)

In the USA MSRP for a NEW 2015 WR250R is $6690. (about £4,460 at current Xchange rate)
2015 Yamaha WR250R Specifications and Price - Motorcycle USA
So that's about half of £8,000 for CCM in UK. Yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
The 450EXC doesn't have pillion pegs
No such thing as "solo" here if road legal ... has to have pegs and be pillion compliant if it's to get a plate and be DOT certified. But I doubt it'd hold a pillion anyway for long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
I think you've got this the wrong way round. Most people who are seriously considering buying a GP450 aren't likely to then turn around and buy a ten year old £2,000 Suzuki to do up. I'm not 'knocking' any of the alternative bikes, or the idea of buying inexpensive secondhand bikes, I'm sure they are all pretty good in their niche, but it's a different niche than buying a brand new lightweight adventure touring bike.
I'm not talking about someone set on a specific bike ... just blokes shopping for bikes in general. Sure, some guys have an extra £8K burning a hole in their pocket ... and maybe they'll buy a CCM, but fact is, among that group, about 90% would go with a KTM or Husqvarna instead. (look at sales figures)

But among "average" buyers of Dual Sport/small ADV bikes ... I think they may buy used. Not a 10 year old beater, but a 3 year old Virgin that's sat in some plonker's garage since day two.
I've bought several bikes just like that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
What still concerns me though, is Chris's comments about handling. And the lack of any reports of serious trips with luggage.
It is worrying ... but handling is quite subjective ... and set up is critical as well. You know all this. Still, if enough experienced riders give the bike the thumbs down on handling ... you have to consider that data. TEST RIDES RULE!

Last edited by mollydog; 1 Apr 2015 at 19:28.
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  #84  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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In most of Europe the WR250F and DRZ400E are road-legal bikes, and a lot cheaper and lighter than their -R and -S counterparts. Which is probably why not a lot of WR250R-s or DRZ400S-es were sold where I live.

DRZ400 hasn't been sold new in most of Europe for at least 6 years. Same for the DR650: hasn't been sold new ever since the EURO3-regulations were introduced in January 2006.

I agree that the WR-R is a good platform for making an adventure bike. And if you throw some extra money at it you could probably get it on par with the CCM in terms of range, comfort and weather protection. Probably still coming in at under the price of the CCM. You'd also still be about 25% down on HP and 45% on torque. But if you can live with that it is an excellent option. I know a guy that happily rode his 250R all around Europe on a 3 month trip.
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  #85  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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Apologies Mollydog, you are right, we're talking at cross purposes You're discussing the WR250R, I was costing up the WR250F.

It seems although the WR250R was sold in the UK at one stage it isn't any more. Looking at an old write-up, a new WR250R was £4,800 seven years ago.

Unfortunately we have different duties and taxes in Europe so it's difficult to get a feel using your US prices. For example the F800GS with premium pack is just $12695 (£8,600) in the US compared to £9,760 for the base machine in the UK—and that's despite the costs of shipping the bike to the US.

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  #86  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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Perchance

Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Technical, Bike forums > Other Bikes Tech
CCM GP 450 Adventure CCM GP 450 Adventure

Does anyone have some info that is not ??
(I believe this may be the only thread in the HUBB that refers to this particular bike).
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  #87  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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Sorreeee. Yes, you're right, we're way off topic.
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  #88  
Old 1 Apr 2015
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Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
Sorreeee. Yes, you're right, we're way off topic.
It wasn't a worry, just an observation.
Come to think of it, the latest few posts have illustrated how different the market for motorcycles in the USA is from the UK and probably the rest of Europe.
Still though!

For now, CCM can sell as many of their new bike as they can manufacture I'll be bound.
As a niche, small organisation they can be "fleet of foot" compared with the big conglomorates, so lets see how things go during this year and beyond.

Over at another thread there is also discussion that has moved on a tad from the single-bike-theme, but therein the thread originator accepted some questions about a range of bikes; in other words the OP took on the move toward a wider discussion which is an important dimension to any thread IMO = ownership of the way a thread develops by the OP.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...guzzi-v7-79979

Meanwhile, quite in contrast, the questions about Suzuki products don't get a great deal of attention in "which bike":
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...or-dr650-81260
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Old 1 Apr 2015
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Originally Posted by Tim Cullis View Post
Apologies Mollydog, you are right, we're talking at cross purposes You're discussing the WR250R, I was costing up the WR250F.

It seems although the WR250R was sold in the UK at one stage it isn't any more. Looking at an old write-up, a new WR250R was £4,800 seven years ago.

Unfortunately we have different duties and taxes in Europe so it's difficult to get a feel using your US prices. For example the F800GS with premium pack is just $12695 (£8,600) in the US compared to £9,760 for the base machine in the UK—and that's despite the costs of shipping the bike to the US.

.
Yep, it's shame you guys get over charged. You would think that with the incredible continuing strength of the UK pound, that things would be more in line with USA prices. Bummer. But you've got the EU not far away if you can figure a way to run a bike out of France or ...?
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Old 1 Apr 2015
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Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
It wasn't a worry, just an observation.
Come to think of it, the latest few posts have illustrated how different the market for motorcycles in the USA is from the UK and probably the rest of Europe.
Still though!
I see your point but it's impossible to bring up discussion about one bike ...
(especially one so new and that few know much about) ... without bringing in inevitable comparisons to other "same Class" bikes. So there ... you've immediately gone off topic. What can you do? If thousands of examples of the CCM were out there on the roads then we'd have more info, more opinions, more facts. Such as it is ... lots of speculation. Nature of internet.

But in this case .. the CCM was always the Anchor, the center point of this thread and discussion and to which everything mentioned referred back to ... eventually. So it's all about CCM but it broadened to include lots of the competition as well. To me it's all good and an opportunity to learn.

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