..out, Out, OUT!!!

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It seems that many in Britain are failing to look at the present day and the future consequences. Bitterness at things that happened in the past is a dangerous motivation to vote for something which will only affect the future.

I don't believe you should condemn future generations because you're stuck in the past..

It's small minded and selfish..

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Dear Ted, Oooph, highly controversial and designed to make people bite! Here is the first chomp. It’s selfish to want to stay in just so you can cross borders without having to flash your passport at a border crossing. It’s selfish to say “ I can’t be arsed with all this currency changing malarkey”. It’s selfish to say well there goes my cheap and effortless holidays. It’s selfish to say my bird is an (add any euro country you want in this space) and she won’t be able to work here and I won’t be able to live there. (wrong incidentally) It’s selfish to say to say sod job protection and our ability to make our own rules as long as I get to go where I want when I want. Incidentally all things I have heard people say in conversation very recently.


Five reasons why we should leave? 1) Control over our borders and waterways. 2) Reduction in red tape for small businesses. 3) An end to EU quotas on production for our industries. 4) The end of criminals charter, (Human rights act) 5) More say in who we do business with.


I could go on but 5 reasons were all that were asked for. I will probably be pushing up daisies within 20 years so the past does not bother me as much as many think and as for the future I am not going to see a great deal more of it. As for being selfish and small minded? I am trying to think of what I believe to be in the best interests of the majority of our citizens for the future. Where will the kids of our steel workers and shipbuilders work in the future?

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www.frothandflames.com
2012 Kawasaki W800
1997 NX 650 Dominator

You started the thread and asked for opinions and it sounds like you don't like what people have to say.

So are you going to report yourself?

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

I said "some people in Britain".

Not "people on this thread "

I'm just sharing my opinion as have many on this thread. If I have offended you I apologise. I can't see how. Unless what I said touched a nerve ???

I have no prejudice against anyone for their feelings and opinions. We can all surely agree to disagree. I read what everyone says and if I agree or not I consider their opinions. What some people have said have actually made me reconsider my stance on Europe.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Let's return to the original point/question in theis thread ;o)

I admit that my 2 (EU-) cents worth on the British Empire grandezza was a bit snotty. And no, most people IMO believe that the UK should stay. No BREXIT.

Why? Economic powers are changing. Compared to the USA and China any European country on its own is just a fart. We only have a fair chance if we stand up together as a group. Naturally every country is different - quite a few are economically much weaker than UK, France or Germany. So here we go and try to support them in their struggle an dhave a fair chance to survive.

Inviting countries to join the EU is unfortunately also driven by politics. So I wonder if the US hasn't exerted some kind of pressure to get Romania & Bulgaria into the club.....

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Only when we pause to wonder
do we go beyond the limits of our little lives.
(Rod McKuen)

I don't recall anyone saying we needed to club together because USA is big. Yes, China is growing but it's still only the GDP of France, Germany and the UK together.

When the Europe Community changed from the EEC to the EU, Europe changed from a trading partnership to a would-be political union, driven by politicians intent on creating a federal Europe.

A federal approach probably works fine for USA and Germany where the language, laws and financial policies of the individual states within the country are pretty much aligned, but it WON'T WORK in the instance of Europe unless the whole of Europe adopts a
- common currency,
- common financial policy,
- common personal and corporate taxation,
- common pension and welfare,
- common foreign policy,
- common defence policy,
- common armed forces...
and so on.

Oh, and a common language would help.

The issue for me is not ease of trade or financial advantages, it's sovereignty. The ever-closer links within the EU coupled with the ever-expansionist policy of the EU leaders will lead to a chaos that will make the Euro crisis look like a storm in a teacup.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Ah, logical semantics. My confusion arose because you wrote, "I don't believe you should condemn future generations because you're stuck in the past," which sounds like you are addressing people on the forum.

To indicate you are talking of others, in the old days, one might have written, "I don't believe one should condemn future generations because one is stuck in the past," but nowadays we would use a less formal construct of "I don't believe people should condemn future generations because they're stuck in the past.."

Sorry I misunderstood.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Thank you for the lesson in 19th century grammar.

But let's try to keep the thread on topic. Thanks.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

This article sums it up for me.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...u-9213131.html

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I'm for out.

I don't want unelected government
I don't trust a government that refuses to audit its accounts
I don't want open borders
I do want a points based immigration system like NZ/OZ
I don't want the EU constitution....ours is fine thanks
The Euro would be a disaster for us...keep the pound

It's all a bit fascist for my liking.....

It's a good article Ted but still there are some things that need to change

Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk while having a cold

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

It's relevant and interesting that just about all of the points mentioned in that article have already been brought out in this thread; to me that indicates that this thread is pretty well informed.

But the article is 22 months old and things have changed greatly since those days. Hence the discussion points in here go in to more detail than the article.

This is the author of the linked article:
Hugo Dixon | Contributor | Breakingviews

There will be many more articles in the main stream media (MSM) between now and the referendum.

Meanwhile, a couple of abstracts from that article in the "Independant" (I can't quite remember who owns it nowadays by the way - it could be a Russian oligarch?)

The chances of this occuring are exceptionally slim:
"The peripheral countries have to solve their own problems. But the EU can help in four ways: it can complete the single market in services, which is patchy; it can open up Europe's markets to trade with other parts of the world, especially the United States and China; it can help develop a modern financial system based more on capital markets rather than banks; and it can lighten the burden of regulation on business by cutting red tape."

As for this; the ECB is the means by which the EU keeps Greece in line.
"The euro crisis is an opportunity for Britain, because all these things would be beneficial for our economy. Just think how Germany is the big winner from the single market in goods because of its prowess as a manufacturing nation. Extending it fully to services, where Britain excels, could be correspondingly beneficial for us. Or think about what would happen if the EU was less "bankcentric" and relied more on capital market instruments, such as shares and bonds, to channel funds from investors to companies. The bulk of the business would flow through the City of London with its army of investment bankers, lawyers and accountants. More trade and less red tape would help our businesses, too"

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Dave

Many are the reasons why we MUST leave the EU; this being a motorcycle forum consider that the (unelected) EU commission actively legislates to eradicate motorcycles (contrary to their own regulations) and has passed or proposed many laws criminalising us for such egregious “crimes” as fitting a crash bar and compelling dealers to report to the "authorities" those of us who modify our own property contrary to their edicts. In small things great truths are revealed.


The EU oligarchs are on their back legs to ensure the status quo and to get us to vote in the “right” way and if we don't they will come back again and again as they did with Ireland until we vote “correctly”!


When contemplating just why these oligarchs wish to keep things as they are here is an example which may be considered a metaphor; The Mercedes Benz truck that takes the cheap goods to the ship in China costs £30k. The Mercedes Benz truck that collects those goods from the ship in the EU costs £130k. You can't buy the Chinese Mercedes Benz truck in the EU.


It is clear to see who benefits from such a state of affairs and ask the young people of Spain, Greece, Italy et al who dis benefits and if in a stronger, federalised EU with a neutered UK (that voted to stay in) will the youth of the UK face a similar fate? For those that don't keep up with these things youth un-employment in those places is as high as 60%.


When faced with the great and the good such as (Sir) John Major claiming they are acting in Britain's interests when advocating staying in you may ascertain in just whose interests they are acting by asking them just how they became multi millionaires on a civil servants pay.


Most of Europe acts under the old “Code Napoleon” in which the people are subservient to the state. In the UK (notionally) it is the opposite. The doctrine of the EU is one of total government the inevitable end point of which is totalitarianism and war. It is the European way, always has been and always will be. Grow a spine and vote leave. You know it makes sense.

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Taken from Money Week Magazine.........

I am a businessman with investments in the European Union (EU). I am a big fan of a free-trade zone, an aspect of the EU that works well. I am, however, deeply concerned by the EU’s declared agenda of moving to full federalism. This is badly thought out, yet every time the strategy shows signs of faltering, the reaction of the unelected bosses in Brussels is to push for even further integration.

The sensible move would be a pause to allow the EU’s institutions to consolidate and develop. One model might have been the 50-year twin- track absorption of Hong Kong into China, which has worked fairly well so far. In contrast, the EU’s 28 nations, with highly disparate cultures and income levels, simply cannot integrate at the pace that the likes of Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, feel is possible. So the fractures are becoming increasingly evident – and dangerous.

The pending euro crisis
In fact, the most prominent example of that attempt at over-rapid integration – the currency union – is in deep trouble. With or without a referendum, and with or without Prime Minister David Cameron’s timid renegotiations, I feel that brutal but necessary reforms – up to and including disintegration – will be forced on the eurozone. These will likely force it back to the model of a free-trade bloc, with different currencies. We don’t want to be a full member of the EU when these events take place, because the cost to us would be huge. Despite the sclerotic influence of the EU on growth and entrepreneurial dynamism, the UK is still growing – and at nearly three times the average rate of our continental neighbours. If we stay in the EU, that growth will come to a shuddering halt – and it’s all because of a looming disaster facing two of Europe’s largest nations.

That might sound extreme, but my forecast is based on a dispassionate analysis of national debts. France and Italy are respectively the second and third-largest eurozone economies. They cannot repay their debts while they remain participants in the euro. They are unable to grow their nominal GNPs fast enough to escape the debt traps they are in. Meanwhile, the maturities (see page 34) of their sovereign debt, at about seven years on average, are short, and the proportion owned by potentially skittish foreign investors, at over 50%, is high. France and Italy have not reformed sufficiently to avoid the simple fact that, one day, markets will take fright at their situation and mark down their bonds. The European Central Bank (ECB) can buy up their bonds for a while, and more quantitative easing (QE) from ECB boss Mario Draghi (assuming the Bundesbank – Germany’s central bank – allows it) could stave off the evil day a bit longer.

But that day is certainly coming. When it arrives, interest rates on French and Italian bonds will rise sharply as risk premia (see page 37) reassert themselves, and we’ll see a crisis that will make Greece look like a picnic. At that point, the most likely outcome is a division of the eurozone into two or more blocs, with Germany heading up the “hard block” zone, and France and Italy either adopting their old national currencies or forming a “soft” southern block. There is no way that Germany either wants to or is able to prevent this, short of allowing a full-scale monetisation of French and Italian debt. That won’t happen because of the inflationary consequences. An “extend and pretend” approach won’t work within a single currency, and France and Italy are about 20 times bigger than Greece in terms of aggregate GNP.

Brexit fears are nonsense
Plenty of other arguments can be made for “Brexit” (and, to be fair, there are some good ones for staying too). But the best reason for leaving is that the eurozone will implode sooner rather than later, and it is better to be in a comfortably-appointed lifeboat in the Channel, than to be dragged under by the wake of the doomed eurozone vessel. All the nonsense spoken about Brexit putting jobs at risk, or of the City’s position being under threat, is, in my view, just that – nonsense. I believe the UK’s capacity to grow will be enhanced by Brexit, and very little will change in terms of trade. We can sit out the carnage that is coming in financial markets. And the City, away from the grasping jealousy of Frankfurt and of Paris, will thrive.

So how will it unfold? As follows: first, Greece and Portugal will suffer another bout of financial crisis. But then the real debt implosion – the one involving the really big boys – will arrive. This time, the eurozone will be floored – and unable to rise from the mat. A new EU – a customs union with regulatory agencies supervising trading standards – will probably emerge from the wreckage. My own support for that type of union would be strong.