You started the thread and asked for opinions and it sounds like you don't like what people have to say.

So are you going to report yourself?

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

I said "some people in Britain".

Not "people on this thread "

I'm just sharing my opinion as have many on this thread. If I have offended you I apologise. I can't see how. Unless what I said touched a nerve ???

I have no prejudice against anyone for their feelings and opinions. We can all surely agree to disagree. I read what everyone says and if I agree or not I consider their opinions. What some people have said have actually made me reconsider my stance on Europe.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Let's return to the original point/question in theis thread ;o)

I admit that my 2 (EU-) cents worth on the British Empire grandezza was a bit snotty. And no, most people IMO believe that the UK should stay. No BREXIT.

Why? Economic powers are changing. Compared to the USA and China any European country on its own is just a fart. We only have a fair chance if we stand up together as a group. Naturally every country is different - quite a few are economically much weaker than UK, France or Germany. So here we go and try to support them in their struggle an dhave a fair chance to survive.

Inviting countries to join the EU is unfortunately also driven by politics. So I wonder if the US hasn't exerted some kind of pressure to get Romania & Bulgaria into the club.....

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Only when we pause to wonder
do we go beyond the limits of our little lives.
(Rod McKuen)

I don't recall anyone saying we needed to club together because USA is big. Yes, China is growing but it's still only the GDP of France, Germany and the UK together.

When the Europe Community changed from the EEC to the EU, Europe changed from a trading partnership to a would-be political union, driven by politicians intent on creating a federal Europe.

A federal approach probably works fine for USA and Germany where the language, laws and financial policies of the individual states within the country are pretty much aligned, but it WON'T WORK in the instance of Europe unless the whole of Europe adopts a
- common currency,
- common financial policy,
- common personal and corporate taxation,
- common pension and welfare,
- common foreign policy,
- common defence policy,
- common armed forces...
and so on.

Oh, and a common language would help.

The issue for me is not ease of trade or financial advantages, it's sovereignty. The ever-closer links within the EU coupled with the ever-expansionist policy of the EU leaders will lead to a chaos that will make the Euro crisis look like a storm in a teacup.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

27 sovereign states can have as many trade links as they like. One sovereign state cannot have 27 variants of basic freedoms and laws.

Frankfurt is a competitor to London. Munich to Sunderland. Highland Whisky to Bordeaux wine. You build links with your customers and suppliers not your competitors.

Andy

For the record, this is what the UK PM has on the table for negotiation.
The four key points from David Cameron's EU letter - BBC News

Some commentators have said that he may "pull a few rabbits out of the hat" also; I take this to mean that he has other, private, ideas that are subsidiary to these publicly announced concepts.

There can be little doubt that a two stage EU exists already; The countries using the Euro as their currency (the Eurozone) and the 9 remainder.

Arguably, there are even more stages to the EU with countries such as Greece in such great debt to the Euro central bank that they have given up all but a figleaf of their democracy to the "central powers" based in Brussels.
In essence, Greece is bankrupt but is kept afloat under tight control so that it can remain in the Eurozone.

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Dave

Ah, logical semantics. My confusion arose because you wrote, "I don't believe you should condemn future generations because you're stuck in the past," which sounds like you are addressing people on the forum.

To indicate you are talking of others, in the old days, one might have written, "I don't believe one should condemn future generations because one is stuck in the past," but nowadays we would use a less formal construct of "I don't believe people should condemn future generations because they're stuck in the past.."

Sorry I misunderstood.

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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

Thank you for the lesson in 19th century grammar.

But let's try to keep the thread on topic. Thanks.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Hmm, it does not matter what century the grammar is from Tim is right and if you had of paid more attention in school you would have known. As it is you don't know the difference between a 7-8ths whitworth spanner and a furlong
But fear not for if we go ahead and vote to stay in you will be speaking either Esperanto or German, then you will really have a problem with grammar
I am trying to imagine what the lyrics to Deutschland Deutschland uber alles in Eperanto to the tune of La Marseillaise would sound like, perhaps not, lets just get the hell out of it

I may not like German sausages, garlic or olive oil but my English and grammar are reasonably OK

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www.frothandflames.com
2012 Kawasaki W800
1997 NX 650 Dominator

1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations.

2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens.

3. Freedom to control our national borders.

4. Freedom to restore Britain’s special legal system.

5. Freedom to deregulate the EU’s costly mass of laws.

6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers.

7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs.

8. Freedom to regenerate Britain’s fisheries.

9. Freedom to save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU, and to reduce welfare payments to non-UK EU citizens.

10. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions.

Wayne

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

We, the EU should not be keeping Greece afloat, why our hard earned cash should go to prop up another country is beyond me (yes I know we do it in Africa etc...don't agree with that either) We can not look after our own people. I had read somewhere that China was happy to bail them out but a phone call from Germany squashed it.....Thanks Merkel

There are too many countries taking more than they are contributing. Some of those countries are the ones that don't want us to implement Restricting access to in-work and out-of-work benefits to EU migrants. Specifically, ministers want to stop those coming to the UK from claiming certain benefits and housing until they have been resident for four years.
I wonder why that is?!

Wayne

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The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

This article sums it up for me.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...u-9213131.html

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I'm for out.

I don't want unelected government
I don't trust a government that refuses to audit its accounts
I don't want open borders
I do want a points based immigration system like NZ/OZ
I don't want the EU constitution....ours is fine thanks
The Euro would be a disaster for us...keep the pound

It's all a bit fascist for my liking.....

What have you got in mind?

*** big grin ***

But you're right ;o)


True, but somewhere in the future I do believe (hope) that the EU achieves a tighter network regarding their political standing towards other countries.
China's influence is growing at an alarming rate, and the other "Tiger" states are gaining momentum. Europe is definitely loosing its power to influence any global political issues.

"Oh, and a common language would help." Well, we do all speak English. Where's the problem? ;o)

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Only when we pause to wonder
do we go beyond the limits of our little lives.
(Rod McKuen)

Many are the reasons why we MUST leave the EU; this being a motorcycle forum consider that the (unelected) EU commission actively legislates to eradicate motorcycles (contrary to their own regulations) and has passed or proposed many laws criminalising us for such egregious “crimes” as fitting a crash bar and compelling dealers to report to the "authorities" those of us who modify our own property contrary to their edicts. In small things great truths are revealed.


The EU oligarchs are on their back legs to ensure the status quo and to get us to vote in the “right” way and if we don't they will come back again and again as they did with Ireland until we vote “correctly”!


When contemplating just why these oligarchs wish to keep things as they are here is an example which may be considered a metaphor; The Mercedes Benz truck that takes the cheap goods to the ship in China costs £30k. The Mercedes Benz truck that collects those goods from the ship in the EU costs £130k. You can't buy the Chinese Mercedes Benz truck in the EU.


It is clear to see who benefits from such a state of affairs and ask the young people of Spain, Greece, Italy et al who dis benefits and if in a stronger, federalised EU with a neutered UK (that voted to stay in) will the youth of the UK face a similar fate? For those that don't keep up with these things youth un-employment in those places is as high as 60%.


When faced with the great and the good such as (Sir) John Major claiming they are acting in Britain's interests when advocating staying in you may ascertain in just whose interests they are acting by asking them just how they became multi millionaires on a civil servants pay.


Most of Europe acts under the old “Code Napoleon” in which the people are subservient to the state. In the UK (notionally) it is the opposite. The doctrine of the EU is one of total government the inevitable end point of which is totalitarianism and war. It is the European way, always has been and always will be. Grow a spine and vote leave. You know it makes sense.

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