Should Britain leave the E.U. ???

[*Touring Ted*]

With the referendum on its way. What do you think ??

I'm undecided...


I love the freedom of movement and the potential that I can easily re-locate to a sunny country if i want to.

I also don't trust our Government so I like that there is the E.U. to tame their Victorian ideals.

But I'm not a fan of the beaurocracy and squabbling of the 'senate'. And from what I see, its not a fair system.

[Plooking]

It's an interesting subject. One thing was the EEC. This, I believe, was a good thing and indeed brought benefits for its members. But now we have this behemoth called European Union, an utopia which tries to make Brits, Portuguese, Bulgarians, Greeks, Finns and everybody in between equal, pretends that everybody forgets its national histories and interests and dreams about a common good defended by all. It has always been an utopia.

Let's go back 25 years and remember how did the EU start. It didn't start due to any relevant needs for a closer union between the EEC countries nor for economic reasons. European Union is the son of political fear. The fear that an united Germany could wage war on its beighbours once more. Out of that came the idea (most particularly from the British, French and Italians) that with very strong, intertwined relations between all countries, Germany would be harmless for it would stand to loose as much as the others. And from this fear started the monstruous and aborrent construction of the European Union. It couldn't work and it was doomed since the beggining. Nowadays and for a couple years already I often ask if, in reality, the EU still exists. For its instutions behave more like a fallen empire trying to stick together its parts at all costs than as the original EU.

Going back 20 years, I repeatedly said that the EU would last until 2012-2015 and it would implode naturally with a bang. I may have been slightly wrong about the when... although I am not so sure if the EU still exists as said before. For a long time I hoped that from the rubble could remain at least the basis to recreate the EEC. Nowadays I'm not so sure that even that will be possible when someone finally issues the death certificate for this outrageous dreamy invention.

With the UK leaving the thing, it may start to desintegrate in an orderly fashion. Opposed to a chaotic one which will ensue if some other country decides to simply leave or, worst, merely starts ignoring the EU. Hungary and Poland seem on track for this second alternative.

[Mezo]

You do ask some of the toughest & most topical questions Ted, i would like to have seen an "Undecided' option on the poll, simply because this is such a fluid topic right now.

Keep up the good work chap.

Mez.

[*Touring Ted*]

Originally Posted by Mezo

You do ask some of the toughest & most topical questions Ted, i would like to have seen an "Undecided' option on the poll, simply because this is such a fluid topic right now.

Keep up the good work chap.

Mez.

Ah yes. I can't edit the poll now though :/

[Lonerider]

I don't think that we should leave the EU completely but we need curb some of the stupid things that come out of Brussels. We need to work on our opt out clauses so we have more say for our own country or maybe it wont be our own country in the future. My worry is we will become just a state in a United Europe rather than what we are now.
I also think that the EU Courts should have a less of a say in what goes on, take for instance (to name but one)...how long did it take us to get rid of Abu Hanza (the hook) due to all the b0ll0cks coming out of Europe, and how much did it cost us the tax payer.
We definitely do not want an open border, there is enough dross trying to get over as it is with out more coming in.

But on the other hand I am assuming that being part of the EU and having an open market as such is better for businesses

If we can stay out of all the crap that comes with it and still help it grow that would be ideal

Wayne

[Mezo]

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted*

I can't edit the poll now though :/

Mod can sort that Ted, all you have to do is admit that you didn't put a whole lot of thought in to your your poll questions. LoL

Hey even NASA make mistakes Ted.

M.

[*Touring Ted*]

Originally Posted by Mezo

Mod can sort that Ted, all you have to do is admit that you didn't put a whole lot of thought in to your your poll questions. LoL

Hey even NASA make mistakes Ted.

M.

I took at least two minutes.. That's the longest I've concentrated on anything all week.

[Keith1954]

I like the thought of an affiliation of European states. Free trade without borders, etc. In short, I enjoy being a European citizen and part of a wider club of nations, not least for the reason Ted mentions above.

On the other hand, there is now too much political power vested in the hands of a few, largely unaccountable, political Europhiles based in Brussels .. and you have to say in Berlin as well, who wield far too much control over the rest of us. The ongoing Greek tragedy is a prime example of this.

They say monetary union cannot happen without political union. That's the 'End Game' isn't it? a full European Union - a federated super state - the United States of Europe by any other name, with it's very own army .. and everything else; separated only by 28 completely unique cultures and economic dynamics, and at least 28 different languages. Yeah Right! .. that'll work [NOT!]

The answer is simple to my mind:

There are currently 28 member states, with others knocking on the door, e.g. Turkey, and even the Ukrainians springs to mind in this respect.

19 members form the Eurozone. Politically, why not work towards fully unionising these 19 states; they're halfway there already (a common currency, Schengen etc.) It seems this is what they are committed to and hell-bent on achieving in any case.

Meanwhile the remaining nine [plus?] member states remain affiliated 'country club' members, with ongoing free trade and interstate travel privileges, but they [we] do our own thing politically and stick with our own separate free-floating currencies.

It really can be that simple. Can't it? Surely it can?

If this simple solution isn't on the table come Referendum Day, but instead it's a straight case of "Remain In" the current status quo and the relentless drive to a European super state, or "Leave and do your own thing" .. then I'm definitely voting 'OUT' ..

At the end of the day, I'm a British subject, loyal firstly to Her Majesty the Queen and her elected sovereign government; this will always trump my European citizenship (and the foreign cronies that are empowered to control it.)

[Walkabout]

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted*

I'm pro E.U.

Pro-Europe and anti-EU.
Totally compatible.

[XS904]

The EU would be fantastic without the politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Plooking]

This...

Originally Posted by Lonerider

But on the other hand I am assuming that being part of the EU and having an open market as such is better for businesses

If we can stay out of all the crap that comes with it and still help it grow that would be ideal

And this...

Originally Posted by Keith1954

I like the thought of an affiliation of European states. Free trade without borders, etc.

Is what was the EEC. A commerce and trade union for benefit of all participant countries. And as such it should had remained.

Originally Posted by Keith1954

That's the 'End Game' isn't it? a full European Union - a federated super state - the United States of Europe by any other name, with it's very own army .. and everything else; separated only by 28 completely unique cultures and economic dynamics, and at least 28 different languages. Yeah Right! .. that'll work [NOT!]

That was the dream, of course. Utopia more than a dream if you ask me. It's insane to suppose that the interests of the UK are the same as those of Greece or Romania or Finland. Each country has its own history, its geopolitical influence, its international interests. It has always been a dream (or nightmare...) to think that the UK would go back on its relation with the US and Canada in favor of Europe. But this is exactly what the eurocrats believed. As a result both the UK and France have less influence in the world nowadays than each of them had twenty years ago. And, what is much worse, the EU has less influence in the world than the UK or France had twenty years ago. I think that the French already realized so and their intervention in Africa might be a way to recover some of the influence that they lost.

Originally Posted by Keith1954

Politically, why not work towards fully unionising these 19 states; they're halfway there already (a common currency, Schengen etc.) It seems this is what they are committed to and hell-bent on achieving in any case.

Utterly impossible even in the eurozone countries. Right now the social and political climates to further the European integration simply are not there in any of these nineteen countries. Quite the opposite, in fact. The crazy euro-lunacy years (the 1990s) are long gone, forgotten and, I tend to think, slightly regretted nowadays.

Originally Posted by Keith1954

I enjoy being a European citizen

That's a fiction, has always been and will always be. The European citizenship is an artificial creation with no real existence in the minds of the people. Further, it's not a real nationality. It's a words' game for one can not be an European citizen by birth or naturalization. One acquires the nationality of a real country and if that country is part of the EU one is also said to be, as a complement, an European citizen. But your nationality and country of citizenship is the United Kingdom. Neither in Europe nor anywhere else in the world you can answer in an official form, when asked about your nationality or country of citizenship with the word "European".

Originally Posted by Keith1954

At the end of the day, I'm a British subject, loyal firstly to Her Majesty the Queen and her elected sovereign government; this will always trump my European citizenship (and the foreign cronies that are empowered to control it.)

URRAY! I commend you, Keith! Those are words not commonly seen nowadays in any country.

[backofbeyond]

First time I ever went to the Elephant rally I watched somebody walk up to a campfire about 50m away and chuck a full camping gaz cylinder into it. A few minutes later there was a loud bang and bits of campfire went everywhere. I get the feeling the canister's just been chucked here and we're now waiting for the explosion. Give it a while and there'll be people flouncing everywhere on the back end of finger stabbing monologues of invective.

For what it's worth (and that'll be one vote, just like everyone else) I'm pro "in" and always have been - even before there was an EU to be in. There's little point in listing a load of economic or other reasons as there's always a counter argument but it's not arguments that matter, it's economic and social results. I'm well aware that the EU isn't perfect - not by a long way, but I can't see any reason why, like Norway and Switzerland, we'd want to be on the outside looking in, still required by reason of the volume of trade we have with the EU to maintain their stds, but no longer having any say in what they are.

Lord Palmerston's quote "we have no eternal allies and no eternal enemies, but we do have eternal interests and those interests it is our duty to follow" is still how these things are done. At this moment in time I think a significant part of those interests lie in the EU. There's a case to be made that the UK's main problem with the EU is that we've been semi detached for decades and there's still a lot of the "Fog in the channel, Europe cut off" empire mentality around. We ought to be more involved, not less.

On a personal note we've put our money where our mouth(s) is/ are. We have property in France and family in two other EU countries. None of that would have been impossible pre EU but the rights that come as EU citizens have made it considerably easier. Sure, I have reservations about where the borders ought to be and the wisdom of some of the decisions that have come from Brussels (or wherever the decision making centre is) - the way the Euro is structured for example, but the IMHO the scales are firmly tilted in the positive direction. IN.

[*Touring Ted*]

Anyone getting nasty or racist in this thread will be reported. I don't think that will happen though.

[Plooking]

Originally Posted by backofbeyond

On a personal note we've put our money where our mouth(s) is/ are. We have property in France and family in two other EU countries. None of that would have been impossible pre EU but the rights that come as EU citizens have made it considerably easier.

Of course it would. Back before the EU in the EEC days the free movement of people already existed. And, in any event, you can buy a house in several countries worldwide (most of them) without having any affiliation to it.

Many people seem to think that the freedom of movement came with Schengen just like many people seem to think that the right to live in any European country came with the Schengen agreement but that is far from true. The Schengen Agreement the sole thing that it did was the abolishing of border controls between the EU countries. Nothing else. And, in any event, the Schengen Agreement is not a birth child of the European Union. It was signed in 1985 being a birth child of the European Economic Comunity. Further, its rules, regulations and systems were not part of the EU acquis until 1999. Only then, with the Treaty of Amsterdam, the provisions of the Schengen Agreement (1985) and of the Schengen Convention (1990) were included in European law. Until then it was an agreement between states.

[*Touring Ted*]

Before the EU could I have gone and lived for 12 months in a camper van in the south coast of Spain ? Could I have legally worked whilst doing that and receive free medical treatment and legal assistance if needed ??

A serious question.