Originally Posted by mollydog

"nothing to compare them with" ? Really? (think about that one!)
Sure, some good stories of RTW rides on X bikes and broke swingarm is Rare, indeed!

Colebatch is most famous X bike rider I know of. But even his $$Big Money$$ custom X Challenge has had numerous engine and other components rebuilt several times. (Lots of his custom work done in Holland at Hot Rod factory) A Nice Bike, but not typical of X bikes out there and one few could ever hope to build or afford.

The Kymco (Taiwan) made motor is good, and would only have got better had BMW stuck with its development. Rotax did original design, good then but quite old now. (DR650, KLR, XR650L, XT600 all around 20 years old too! )

Got any links for me where I can read up on these facts you are presenting please ? I'm always willing to learn. (Just do me a favour and get straight links, I don't want to be reading through 100's of pages to see if I can find the facts you are presenting)
Walters bike has been done up front to back with a lot of things you don't actually need but could possibly want for a RTW or such, trip. It was also a development platform for many of the extras available for the bike today.


I believe some X bikes have the bad water pump seal issue that other F and G single BMW's had (have) (also made by Kymco)

Yes, that's true, even on BMW's, parts wear. (I couldn't believe it either after all that marketing!)

TOO TRUE, GS12's have more final drive failures ... and as you say ... riders still buy them! I love riding the R1200GS ... just would not own one. (can't afford one either!)

But this illustrates my point: Had BMW stayed behind the X bike line and continued R&D with them, I contend they could have had a world class bike dual sport/travel bike. They only manufactured the bike for what, two or three years?

There isn't much more to develop on these bikes.
Twin spark, fuel injection, 10.000 km service interval, runs on 80 octane no problem, runs fine on altitudes well over 4000 M.
The engines are as reliable as sunrise, I believe to be class leading in MpG, Very well built, powerfull enough for what they are as they're not made to be "ready to race"
They aren't very easy to work on but that's the point, you hardly ever have to.
The reason BMW stopped producing them is that they couldn't sell them quick enough. BMW wants big numbers and they want them quickly. The X didn't sell quick enough so the abandoned them altogether.

Even so, I'd sooner ride long distance on an old X bike than ANY KTM single, new or old. But neither are as good (or as good value) as my Suzuki DR650. Honda XR650L, Yam XT660 and Kawi KLR650 also good value travel bikes. Cheaper to buy and run than any BMW. Sorry, just the way it is. Maybe in EU they're cheaper?

But if the X bikes were still in production I'd certainly be looking closely at one now. BMW have the ability to make a bike as good as they wish. It's a shame what happened to the X bikes under an incompetent management, made decision to cancel the bike. Mistake, IMO.

Remember, the Japanese have been hard at work making dual sport and dirt bikes since the 1960's. They've won countless championships in ALL classes, world wide for 50 years. What have BMW won?

So you can only develop something good racing ? That's a rather narrow minded look at things if you don't mind me saying so.

Japanese big 4 have won dozens of Motocross, Enduro, Cross Country and Road Racing championships in the last 50 years.
What was BMW doing all this time?

Selling bikes through good marketing (not that I'm someone who'd fall for that though)

BMW are relative new comers to any sort of serious, long term racing. They never made dirt bikes (save one year for G450), never raced off road save one world enduro season and a few Dakar races and never showed any interest whatsoever in true off road capable dual sport bikes ... except for the X with very halfhearted attempts with F and G bikes.

The Japanese have produced HUNDREDS of different dual sport models going back to 1960's, from 50cc to 800cc (DR Big). From kids bikes to full on factory race bikes ... and are still producing them TODAY. They've done it all. For 50 years.

Sorry, I don't consider R80, R100 or any GS as "off road capable" ... I'd sooner ride a 30 year old Honda XL500 then any BMW in serious off road conditions.

If I were to drive a Formula one car I'm pretty sure I'd stink at it too.

But ... BMW DO make good travel bikes.

Not if you want real off-road ability or if you only have the Touratech catalog to choose from. Staying on paved or graded gravel roads then yes.

But racing is what brings technology forward ... and that is why the Japanese lead. The corporate arrogance of BMW is unbelievable, always amazed me. (we have another word for it )

Originally Posted by Dutchgit

Got any links for me where I can read up on these facts you are presenting please ? I'm always willing to learn.

Originally Posted by Dutchgit

Yes, that's true, even on BMW's, parts wear. (I couldn't believe it either after all that marketing!)

Originally Posted by Dutchgit

There isn't much more to develop on these bikes.
Twin spark, fuel injection, 10.000 km service interval, runs on 80 octane no problem, runs fine on altitudes well over 4000 M.
The engines are as reliable as sunrise, I believe to be class leading in MpG, Very well built, powerfull enough for what they are as they're not made to be "ready to race" They aren't very easy to work on but that's the point, you hardly ever have to.

Originally Posted by Dutchgit

So you can only develop something good racing? That's a rather narrow minded look at things if you don't mind me saying so.

Originally Posted by mollydog

Do you remember what Soichiro Honda said about the value of racing? It's like putting a man on the Moon. Everyone benefits from what is learned.

Originally Posted by mollydog

What facts are you confused about? Links? What specific questions do you have?



You misunderstand.

BMW's water pump seals have failed often and at random ... over and over again ... even at low kms. Common knowledge in BMW community (Chain Gang, F650 thread on ADV Rider ext)



Once water pump seal fails, you can loose you're entire engine if you don't catch it soon enough. Was a problem for YEARS ... BMW never fixed it.



I think you should talk to Maria 41 and her husband!



Always room for development. Ask ANY mechanical engineer/designer. There are some GOOD things on X and F bikes. Fuel economy on F bikes is very good But too many poor engineering and planning choices, IMO.



Short list of weak items with F, G and X bikes that should be made better:

1. Suspension. Ditch rear bladder shock on X series. On F and G bikes the skinny front forks are WRONG for a 450 lb. bike. Up grade to at least 43mm fork. Low level WP shocks should be higher level pieces.

2. F and G too heavy, even X could be lighter if further development had continued. The F and G bikes are 70 lbs. heavier than my DR650 and XR650L.

Why? Because BMW never intended these bikes to set foot off road.

Road use only. Yet that is not how they market them. So ... ALL BS.

3. Should be more maintenance/owner friendly. As you say, they are HARD to work on. (I've worked on F bike) They are a PITA to do anything on.

4. Redesign elec. system. Many reports of failed Regulator/Rectifier, over charged, boiled out batteries. Poor charging system, BMW used a NON sealed battery.



Read the Chain Gang forum for a few years like I did .. dozens of problems.





Serious?

Maybe you don't understand engineering? Do you remember what Soichiro Honda said about the value of racing? It's like putting a man on the Moon. Everyone benefits from what is learned.



From 50cc kid's bikes to Moto GP winners to Formula One ... even to Honda's Jet aircraft. All racing's lessons trickle down to every aspect of production.

Racing brings out the best, most innovative solutions and then TESTS them under the harshest conditions. Pushes technology forward. We've known this FACT 100 years. Nothing new. Racing is essential to smart evolution.



Have you seen the new BMW G310? BMW designed, Indian made, 310cc.

BMW claim a "GS" version with be forthcoming, initial bike is standard bike.

34 HP, 350 lbs.

Check it out!

New BMW G310R roadster revealed | MCN