The other day, an acquaintance at a Japanese motorcycle manufacturer asked me why Europeans would travel on Japanese bikes when they have a choice of European bikes with an image of being travel bikes.
I really couldn't give an answer, so I though I would ask the rest of the community about their choices.

So, why did YOU choose a Japanese or a European bike?
Seeing as the last time a "which is better" thread was started it degenerated into name calling, maybe we should keep it to the reason you personally chose the bike you did.

OK, I'll start it out with what I chose.
I went with a BWM even though I live in Japan because the Japanese manufactures didn't sell their bigger bikes in the home market. At the time, all the off road capable bikes were 250cc or smaller (and a bit short for me as well). Africa Twin and Transalp were discontinued in Japan, KLR and DR 650 never released here, etc. I really didn't have much of a choice!
I was also influenced by many of the high-profile travelers then being on BMW (Helge Pedersen, Grant & Susan Johnson, etc.)

So, what is your story? Why did you go for Japanese or European?

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Japan touring information

This will be of no help to your deliberations: I currently have one of each.

As for choosing a bike, it is a far more complex issue than the matter of what country of ownership/brand is on offer at a particular time: even more so nowadays if one takes into account that vehicle production is but one more of the many international businesses in this world.
The Japanese-owned car factories scattered across the UK come to mind as one obvious example.


Perhaps your acquaintance has a distorted view; maybe s/he is too young to remember "the good old days" when Jap production of bikes killed off the UK produced "old iron"; the latter were all travel bikes in those days, but then the word you use - image - came into the equation via degree courses in marketing perhaps?
Many would say that the modern day BMW company have very good marketing staff who could sell ice to the eskimoes.

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Dave

The idea that japanese manufacturing killed off the old Brit bike manufacturing is complete rubbish. An urban myth.

Brit bikes were into decline from about the late 1930's. You only have to look at those manufacturers that were long gone before Honda started making lawnmowers. Brough, Vincent, Sunbeam, Douglas, Rudge and lots more. They all died long before the advent of Japan as a motorcycle manufacturer. Japan partly filled the void left by the demise of the old Brit bikes in the same way mammals filled the void left by the demise of the dinasaurs.

Although Triumph has been resurrected, it is in name only. The bikes are not for the market for which the old vintage bikes were made, cheap transport. They do not have the appeal to me of the old bikes. It is very rarely that I can look at a modern bike that I would want to own.

Reverse is true for me. There have been massive improvements in technology over the last couple of decades - let's face it, most road bikes were dangerously unsafe when cornering until the mid-late eighties when radial tyres for bikes, and proper frames started being built.

Brakes? Drum brakes on a bike are an absolute joke (sadly, most riders weren't laughing when they tried to stop quickly, however) and early disc brakes weren't much better either. By comparison, ABS is streets ahead when it comes to safety.

Who remembers having to regularly set ignition points, change sparkplugs and rejet carbies (going uphill to any sort of an altitude used to mean massive power losses) and compare this to today's EFI and computerised ignition module.

As for power, comfort, rideability, - not to mention style - they have all come ahead by leaps and bounds.

For me, the oldest bike I will touch is my '74 RD350 which I have owned for over 40 years - a bike that was at the cutting edge of '70s technology.

As for any european bike prior to the mid nineties, you have to be joking.

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

Some truth there ... especially regards the classic brands you mention. But don't forget the final "surge" during the mid 60's to early 70's where Triumph/BSA exported more bikes to the USA in a few years than they'd sold in the previous 10 years. They broke every record. Triumph were a BIG deal here in California ... which sets ALL trends for the whole USA.

You can check the Triumph books by guys like Mick Walker and other historians. The old guard directors at Triumph/BSA group were tired after this "last fling" sending 10's of thousands of bikes to America.

Some of those last runs of bikes were the Triumph and BSA triples and some of the least reliable bikes Triumph/BSA group made. Porous castings, crap electrics, carbs and cams that wore out in 5000 miles.
I owned a '79 Bonneville Special, which was quite good. A rare thing.

By 1970 the Japanese were coming on strong with their CB750 inline four. But Triumph, BSA and Harley still were THE bikes to own ... and thousands in SoCal where I lived DID own British bikes.

But the big bosses at Triumph/BSA no longer cared about motorbikes, about the workers or about their country's industrial future. They drained the companies coffer's and fled into the night, selling off old new stock for pennies on the pound. But this came as no surprise to anyone paying attention at the time. They all knew it was coming.


That's a shame. I'm rather proud of what Triumph have done ... and I'm an American ... but Brit bikes were part of me, heart & soul as a kid.

I don't like every model they've made but seems to me the "new" Bonneville is certainly a good basic bike for relatively cheap transport. And it's 20 times more reliable and long lived as it's predecessors. A bit expensive perhaps but more or less in line with current bikes. I also believe the current Street Triple line are some of the very best and inspirational bikes in motorcycling today. Stunning bikes in every way, IMHO.

Currently I own a 2003 Thunderbird and 2005 Enfield.

If I had to do a really long trip away from first world resources I would choose to take the Enfield. the thunderbird is much like the BMW I had but much better (for me) even so It is not a bike that takes to being offroad. I don;t mean 100's of miles without roads, Just a trip across a wet grassy field to pitch my tent would be "exciting" The Enfield wouldn't mind a bit.

What you have to remember is the old bikes were designed for a different market and a different purpose in a different time. they were disigned to be hand built by craftsmen ( which is another reason why the quality dropped when they built large numbers at the end of the 60's. had to run on 80 ron fuel, monograde oils and natural rubber crossply tyres. Also no motorways, just the little A and B roads where doing 45mph was making good time. their world is gone. Like wise few modern bikes would work very well if you were to transport them back to 1935.

The thread continues to have a good mix of why we bought bikes in the past with why we buy bikes today.


What happened is that the Japanese are very, very good at copying ideas.
I am pretty sure that they got the management principles from USA-based academic research and papers published on the subject of Quality Assurance (QA).
In contrast, the UK was much slower to take up the concepts of QA which in themselves have developed enormously since the 1970s (for all I know such concepts will be ongoing).
Along the way, these principles dealt with the metallurgy issues that are mentioned in other posts.

So, a Brit bike and an Indian manufactured bike with a Brit badge.
That's a nice mix.

[QUOTE=Jake;493947]
Anyway give me a bike designed and built in a European factory
[/QUOTE
These days, it is very difficult to achieve this; probably impossible. My 1990s TTR600 was badged as a Yamaha and assembled in Italy (the "Belgado" bike).

Triumph have a very large proportion of their manufacturing in Thailand.

On the car front, Toyota, Honda and Nissan, to name just 3 big Jap outfits, employ 1000s of UK workers and 1000s more across other countries.

Oh yes, the Chinese are coming; this was very noticeable at the NEC show last November.
I also noticed it during a visit to the French national air show in 1997.

The list is endless, and the reason is that business has no boundaries - it is totally international: where the profits go and the overall "morality" of this (the ethics) is a whole different ball game.

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Dave

For me the choice is not about continents or countries. I have worked in the Automotive industry since 1993. I can show you small scale producers who hand make items fixing every defect as they go. I can show you small scale manufacturers who have lost the skills to do this and make unadulterated **** because they insist on not using common parts and processes. I have worked with the biggest car makers in the world who variably either work to the spirit of proven management systems and have high quality and productivity as a result while other cannot integrate this into their culture and pay lip service while living firmly in 1971 and cutting costs to stay competitive. There is no gene or passport stamp that will change this.

There are managers who can turn a disaster like British Leyland into a sucess like Toyota UK or Nissan Sunderland using essentially the same pool of workers. Triumphs collective of 1979 does not share electrics suppliers with a Hinckley of 2015, yet the reputations live on. There are marketing men who will convince people a Vauxhall Viva is a safer bet than a Honda and those on the net who want to believe a badge guarantees something. There are customer service organisations who can make you feel lucky to have a product that dropped to bits or designs that are so great when working you forgive them as soon as they are fixed after a failure.

I will buy any product from any manufacturer in any nation or trading block based on all these factors and current feedback. I am bound to own Chinese made at somepoint.

I bought a Guzzi because I like how it rides, trust my dealer, think Piaggio have kicked out the old guard in Italy and believe I can do most work required myself without expensive new kit.

Andy

Been there, done that, but only once - when I lived and worked in central Asia; for a simple reason, there was very little else available to buy.

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Dave

Agree. My experience from motorcycle riding since 1970.

As well, the difference in specs is often overstated- meaning Euro bikes are not always so much better...or sometimes not at all!

Hmm, I was looking for a secondhand XT600 but couldn't find a good one.
I decided to buy a new XT but it was out of stock had to wait for three months to get it. For 20% more I bought a new BMW and rode it out of the shop the next day. That's a bit more then 250kkm ago

Next time? I don't think there will be a next time. The BMW will probably outlive me and it works better then any bike you can buy in a shop today

Hence there was (perhaps still is?) a Transalp 400cc sold in Japan: of course there were loads of grey imports brought to the UK from Japan all those years ago, including that little transalp, but it doesn't seem to be so common nowadays - I could be wrong on that. Maybe that is one reason why there are less travel bkes in use in the UK that were "made in Japan" (if that is indeed the case).

Lions led by donkeys comes to mind.

That must have been quite a few years ago.
The XT600 crossed my mind when I read the OP; it does appear that the XTZ660, in it's variants, is doing OK as a current replacement model, for the UK market anyway (I do realise that it is not sold in every part of the world but that goes for many brands and models of vehicles).

On the other hand, the big four Jap manufacturers have probably conceded the ground as far as "travel bikes" are concerned over recent times: there have been lots of comments about this in the past and the result is that other manufacturers got in there to fill the gap - just look at how people bemoan the lack of an Africa Twin which has not been sold new for the past 12 years - where did Honda think that market was going to go when they stopped production? The Transalp I guess. Or, dare I say it, the Varadero.

In contrast, I well recall the marketing vow of BMW, also about 12 years ago; this was to bring out 3 new bikes each and every year for the "foreseeable" future.
And that is exactly what they have done ever since, via a lot of variations of basic models, manufacturing of scooters etc etc.

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Dave

Sorry, correction: "I decided to buy a new XT660 but it was out of stock had to wait for three months to get it."

Ah! You are younger than I thought.

My impressions of the XT660Z in the UK are:-
As new they have sold OK, up to more or less now, since first marketed here in 2008.
I suspect that sales have now slowed; people want the bike to be updated by Yamaha and will wait to see what develops.
Many private sellers of second hand bikes want to achieve more or less the same prices as are asked by the dealers.
Maybe for these reasons there are plenty of them available for sale here, judging by current advertising.

Still, it was the XT600 that I thought about with respect to the OP.
And the TTR600, which I owned a few years ago, and the XT225 which I have nowadays.
I have owned other Yamahas also, but once upon a time, and a long way back, I was more of a Honda buyer.

On the European front:-
My current European bike is a KTM and a replacement, if I was to replace it now, might come from Moto Guzzi or, perhaps, Aprilia.

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Dave

Transalp 400 was discontinued in about 1996. Africa Twin was discontinued in Japan in 1999 (think it came back for a limited release once after that). I assume the marketing geniuses figured there was no market for them in Japan, but BMW "big off roaders" as they are called here can be seen all over the place (usually on the road of course). I wanted a new bike for my travels in 2003, so I ended up with a BMW.

I didn't want a BMW initially as it has a "luxury" brand image and I didn't wanna seem to be overflowing with money. A "down to earth" Honda would have been my preference. In hindsight, an Africa Twin would probably have looked as luxurious as a BMW F650 in rural Mongolia. But that was my pre-travel presumption.