Japanese vs. European
 

The other day, an acquaintance at a Japanese motorcycle manufacturer asked me why Europeans would travel on Japanese bikes when they have a choice of European bikes with an image of being travel bikes.
I really couldn't give an answer, so I though I would ask the rest of the community about their choices.

So, why did YOU choose a Japanese or a European bike?
Seeing as the last time a "which is better" thread was started it degenerated into name calling, maybe we should keep it to the reason you personally chose the bike you did. doh

OK, I'll start it out with what I chose.
I went with a BWM even though I live in Japan because the Japanese manufactures didn't sell their bigger bikes in the home market. At the time, all the off road capable bikes were 250cc or smaller (and a bit short for me as well). Africa Twin and Transalp were discontinued in Japan, KLR and DR 650 never released here, etc. I really didn't have much of a choice!
I was also influenced by many of the high-profile travelers then being on BMW (Helge Pedersen, Grant & Susan Johnson, etc.)

So, what is your story? Why did you go for Japanese or European?

:funmeterno:

My first thoughts
 

This will be of no help to your deliberations: I currently have one of each.

As for choosing a bike, it is a far more complex issue than the matter of what country of ownership/brand is on offer at a particular time: even more so nowadays if one takes into account that vehicle production is but one more of the many international businesses in this world.
The Japanese-owned car factories scattered across the UK come to mind as one obvious example.


Perhaps your acquaintance has a distorted view; maybe s/he is too young to remember "the good old days" when Jap production of bikes killed off the UK produced "old iron"; the latter were all travel bikes in those days, but then the word you use - image - came into the equation via degree courses in marketing perhaps?
Many would say that the modern day BMW company have very good marketing staff who could sell ice to the eskimoes.

For me the choice is not about continents or countries. I have worked in the Automotive industry since 1993. I can show you small scale producers who hand make items fixing every defect as they go. I can show you small scale manufacturers who have lost the skills to do this and make unadulterated **** because they insist on not using common parts and processes. I have worked with the biggest car makers in the world who variably either work to the spirit of proven management systems and have high quality and productivity as a result while other cannot integrate this into their culture and pay lip service while living firmly in 1971 and cutting costs to stay competitive. There is no gene or passport stamp that will change this.

There are managers who can turn a disaster like British Leyland into a sucess like Toyota UK or Nissan Sunderland using essentially the same pool of workers. Triumphs collective of 1979 does not share electrics suppliers with a Hinckley of 2015, yet the reputations live on. There are marketing men who will convince people a Vauxhall Viva is a safer bet than a Honda and those on the net who want to believe a badge guarantees something. There are customer service organisations who can make you feel lucky to have a product that dropped to bits or designs that are so great when working you forgive them as soon as they are fixed after a failure.

I will buy any product from any manufacturer in any nation or trading block based on all these factors and current feedback. I am bound to own Chinese made at somepoint.

I bought a Guzzi because I like how it rides, trust my dealer, think Piaggio have kicked out the old guard in Italy and believe I can do most work required myself without expensive new kit.

Andy

Hmm, I was looking for a secondhand XT600 but couldn't find a good one.
I decided to buy a new XT but it was out of stock had to wait for three months to get it. For 20% more I bought a new BMW and rode it out of the shop the next day. That's a bit more then 250kkm ago :palm:

Next time? I don't think there will be a next time. The BMW will probably outlive me and it works better then any bike you can buy in a shop today :clown:

Hence there was (perhaps still is?) a Transalp 400cc sold in Japan: of course there were loads of grey imports brought to the UK from Japan all those years ago, including that little transalp, but it doesn't seem to be so common nowadays - I could be wrong on that. Maybe that is one reason why there are less travel bkes in use in the UK that were "made in Japan" (if that is indeed the case).

Lions led by donkeys comes to mind.

That must have been quite a few years ago.
The XT600 crossed my mind when I read the OP; it does appear that the XTZ660, in it's variants, is doing OK as a current replacement model, for the UK market anyway (I do realise that it is not sold in every part of the world but that goes for many brands and models of vehicles).

On the other hand, the big four Jap manufacturers have probably conceded the ground as far as "travel bikes" are concerned over recent times: there have been lots of comments about this in the past and the result is that other manufacturers got in there to fill the gap - just look at how people bemoan the lack of an Africa Twin which has not been sold new for the past 12 years - where did Honda think that market was going to go when they stopped production? The Transalp I guess. Or, dare I say it, the Varadero.

In contrast, I well recall the marketing vow of BMW, also about 12 years ago; this was to bring out 3 new bikes each and every year for the "foreseeable" future.
And that is exactly what they have done ever since, via a lot of variations of basic models, manufacturing of scooters etc etc.

Sorry, correction: "I decided to buy a new XT660 but it was out of stock had to wait for three months to get it."

Ah! You are younger than I thought.

My impressions of the XT660Z in the UK are:-
As new they have sold OK, up to more or less now, since first marketed here in 2008.
I suspect that sales have now slowed; people want the bike to be updated by Yamaha and will wait to see what develops.
Many private sellers of second hand bikes want to achieve more or less the same prices as are asked by the dealers.
Maybe for these reasons there are plenty of them available for sale here, judging by current advertising.

Still, it was the XT600 that I thought about with respect to the OP.
And the TTR600, which I owned a few years ago, and the XT225 which I have nowadays.
I have owned other Yamahas also, but once upon a time, and a long way back, I was more of a Honda buyer.

On the European front:-
My current European bike is a KTM and a replacement, if I was to replace it now, might come from Moto Guzzi or, perhaps, Aprilia.

Been there, done that, but only once - when I lived and worked in central Asia; for a simple reason, there was very little else available to buy.

Transalp 400 was discontinued in about 1996. Africa Twin was discontinued in Japan in 1999 (think it came back for a limited release once after that). I assume the marketing geniuses figured there was no market for them in Japan, but BMW "big off roaders" as they are called here can be seen all over the place (usually on the road of course). I wanted a new bike for my travels in 2003, so I ended up with a BMW.

I didn't want a BMW initially as it has a "luxury" brand image and I didn't wanna seem to be overflowing with money. A "down to earth" Honda would have been my preference. In hindsight, an Africa Twin would probably have looked as luxurious as a BMW F650 in rural Mongolia. But that was my pre-travel presumption.

Agree. My experience from motorcycle riding since 1970.

As well, the difference in specs is often overstated- meaning Euro bikes are not always so much better...or sometimes not at all!

In this case, "Image" is a sort of man made illusion, or perhaps a delusion?doh History and reality may tell a different story.

The fact is, the Japanese have been producing world class "travel bikes" since the 1970's. These models have also OUT SOLD BMW ... and ALL Euro brands combined ... by 20 to one ... as a conservative estimate, at least here in North America.

Maybe your buddy never heard of the Honda Gold Wing, ST1100, ST1300,
Yamaha Venture (now discontinued), FJR1300 to name just a few?

Kawasaki and Suzuki also made BIG travel bikes years ago (Voyager, Calvalcade). Kawi currently still does well with their Concours 1400, which compares to the big six BMW at nearly half it's price. Suzuki has the successful V-Strom, an excellent travel bike that I've crossed continents on ... 90K miles.

The Honda Gold Wing is a hugely popular bike in North America, probably not so much in EU, can't confirm that.

Another obvious answer as to why Japanese over Euro is the fact that BMW have made several serious mis-steps over the years, putting off or losing thousands of customers as a result. They also cultivated a reputation for arrogance that is not an illusion. But that was "Then".

In the last decade BMW have made great strides and done very well. During the same period, the Japanese have not done enough to compete, remained static (stagnate? :innocent:) while BMW drive forward pushing tech limits, improving customer service and remaining competitive price wise too.

So ... there is my short answer.

Can't pick one bike, have owned 50+ since about 1962, plus experience from testing bikes for a magazine for 20 years. (add 50 more)

Growing up in California, BMW wasn't much of a presence until the 1980's. But, if truth be told, my first two bikes were BOTH "European". First was a 1960 Triumph Tiger Cub (200cc single). I pushed that bike more than I rode it and it never ran right. (mostly due to lack of mechanical acumen)

Next bike was a late 50's Vespa 150. Great scooter that took me everywhere. But it was not perfect. Next came a Honda 50 Super Cub. An epiphany!

Not every Japanese bike was so good but suffice to say my introduction to Japanese bikes left a lasting impression ... but took a while to sink in just HOW GOOD the Honda really was. (I was only 16)

Continued with Euro bikes, racing Triumph and Bultaco as a teen, Motocross & Desert racing. They ALL broke down. Soon after, me and buddies got the crazy idea to go to Mexico on surf trips on our bikes.
Several Honda dual sport bikes followed. NONE broke down. Slowly I began to get the clear picture on Japanese bikes.

Lots of bikes since including BMW, KTM, Guzzi, BSA, Husqvarna, Triumph and ALL the big four ... and at least 50 test bikes including HD, Buell and on and on.

Currently own a Suzuki DR650 and a 1050 Triumph Tiger.
But, really, I'm a Japanese bike guy. They stand up to hard use, even torture and almost NEVER break down. Important with a travel bike.

PS: Chris, Have you ever toured a Japanese bike manufacturer? I was lucky enough to get a tour of Yamaha, round '93. Also got a tour of Triumph in 2003 and BMW, Spandau, Berlin, 1993.

Nothing comes close to Yamaha. If you can manage it, do it. :thumbup1:

I can certainly say why I started traveling on Japanese bikes - because at the time (early 70's) everything else, without exception, was total cr@p. Bear in mind that this was my personal opinion formed by a multitude of factors such as the social standing of British bikes at the time, style, engineering standards and the seeming reliability (or rather, lack of) of anything British owned by friends.

BMWs were for people my age now and as for anything else European - all the Spanish smokers, Ducati etc, I lumped them all together with the Soviet block two strokes as old tired designs without style or much substance. As value for money compared to the Japanese offerings, they all fell well short. Had it not been for the Japanese "invasion", or had they arrived five years later than they did I probably wouldn't have bothered - I would not have bought British. I wouldn't be biking now, and my life would have taken several different turns - maybe. I owe everything I am to a Yamaha. :laugh:

So how does that affect me now? Being old enough to not bother with the style elements any more I can see the production engineering shortcomings of Japanese bikes a lot more clearly and there's no doubt the Euro bikes have at the very least caught up. It might even be argued that the roles have reversed, with the Euro stuff looking the more modern and the Japanese designs looking, if not old, at least somewhat directionless and conservative. Nevertheless old prejudices die hard and this year's purchase will be a Honda. As others have said reliability is the no 1 priority for a travelling bike and after a lifetime of riding them I know what I'm getting.

I've had and known too many experiences of getting there on a Triumph but getting back on a recovery truck.

I wanted a twin-cylinder for smoothness but I didn't want a big GS, Varadero, 990 or Caponord. The choice of mid-size, multi-cylinder bikes back in 2008 was the new BMW F800GS, a new Honda XL700V or a second-hand Honda XRV750 Africa Twin. Although I seriously considered a Yamaha XT660Z Tenere, I went for the BMW.

I think the parallel twin KLE650 versys was around in 2008.
I had one about 3 years ago and wrote a review at that time:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...s-thread-65709

There is no brand loyalty in my case! I bought it because I was casting around for a change of bike and, talking with some guys who were riding them at the time, the model appeared to be une bonne idee.

So, at that time I had two Japanese bikes.

I had one of those also, and a 250cc Matchless and I was riding a BSA bantam quite a lot back in the 60s but it was not in my ownership.
They all broke down at different times in different circumstances: but that is why I remember those bikes and not so much the modern universal Jap machines (UJM).