Japanese vs. European
 

The other day, an acquaintance at a Japanese motorcycle manufacturer asked me why Europeans would travel on Japanese bikes when they have a choice of European bikes with an image of being travel bikes.
I really couldn't give an answer, so I though I would ask the rest of the community about their choices.

So, why did YOU choose a Japanese or a European bike?
Seeing as the last time a "which is better" thread was started it degenerated into name calling, maybe we should keep it to the reason you personally chose the bike you did. doh

OK, I'll start it out with what I chose.
I went with a BWM even though I live in Japan because the Japanese manufactures didn't sell their bigger bikes in the home market. At the time, all the off road capable bikes were 250cc or smaller (and a bit short for me as well). Africa Twin and Transalp were discontinued in Japan, KLR and DR 650 never released here, etc. I really didn't have much of a choice!
I was also influenced by many of the high-profile travelers then being on BMW (Helge Pedersen, Grant & Susan Johnson, etc.)

So, what is your story? Why did you go for Japanese or European?

:funmeterno:

My first thoughts
 

This will be of no help to your deliberations: I currently have one of each.

As for choosing a bike, it is a far more complex issue than the matter of what country of ownership/brand is on offer at a particular time: even more so nowadays if one takes into account that vehicle production is but one more of the many international businesses in this world.
The Japanese-owned car factories scattered across the UK come to mind as one obvious example.


Perhaps your acquaintance has a distorted view; maybe s/he is too young to remember "the good old days" when Jap production of bikes killed off the UK produced "old iron"; the latter were all travel bikes in those days, but then the word you use - image - came into the equation via degree courses in marketing perhaps?
Many would say that the modern day BMW company have very good marketing staff who could sell ice to the eskimoes.

For me the choice is not about continents or countries. I have worked in the Automotive industry since 1993. I can show you small scale producers who hand make items fixing every defect as they go. I can show you small scale manufacturers who have lost the skills to do this and make unadulterated **** because they insist on not using common parts and processes. I have worked with the biggest car makers in the world who variably either work to the spirit of proven management systems and have high quality and productivity as a result while other cannot integrate this into their culture and pay lip service while living firmly in 1971 and cutting costs to stay competitive. There is no gene or passport stamp that will change this.

There are managers who can turn a disaster like British Leyland into a sucess like Toyota UK or Nissan Sunderland using essentially the same pool of workers. Triumphs collective of 1979 does not share electrics suppliers with a Hinckley of 2015, yet the reputations live on. There are marketing men who will convince people a Vauxhall Viva is a safer bet than a Honda and those on the net who want to believe a badge guarantees something. There are customer service organisations who can make you feel lucky to have a product that dropped to bits or designs that are so great when working you forgive them as soon as they are fixed after a failure.

I will buy any product from any manufacturer in any nation or trading block based on all these factors and current feedback. I am bound to own Chinese made at somepoint.

I bought a Guzzi because I like how it rides, trust my dealer, think Piaggio have kicked out the old guard in Italy and believe I can do most work required myself without expensive new kit.

Andy

Hmm, I was looking for a secondhand XT600 but couldn't find a good one.
I decided to buy a new XT but it was out of stock had to wait for three months to get it. For 20% more I bought a new BMW and rode it out of the shop the next day. That's a bit more then 250kkm ago :palm:

Next time? I don't think there will be a next time. The BMW will probably outlive me and it works better then any bike you can buy in a shop today :clown:

Hence there was (perhaps still is?) a Transalp 400cc sold in Japan: of course there were loads of grey imports brought to the UK from Japan all those years ago, including that little transalp, but it doesn't seem to be so common nowadays - I could be wrong on that. Maybe that is one reason why there are less travel bkes in use in the UK that were "made in Japan" (if that is indeed the case).

Lions led by donkeys comes to mind.

That must have been quite a few years ago.
The XT600 crossed my mind when I read the OP; it does appear that the XTZ660, in it's variants, is doing OK as a current replacement model, for the UK market anyway (I do realise that it is not sold in every part of the world but that goes for many brands and models of vehicles).

On the other hand, the big four Jap manufacturers have probably conceded the ground as far as "travel bikes" are concerned over recent times: there have been lots of comments about this in the past and the result is that other manufacturers got in there to fill the gap - just look at how people bemoan the lack of an Africa Twin which has not been sold new for the past 12 years - where did Honda think that market was going to go when they stopped production? The Transalp I guess. Or, dare I say it, the Varadero.

In contrast, I well recall the marketing vow of BMW, also about 12 years ago; this was to bring out 3 new bikes each and every year for the "foreseeable" future.
And that is exactly what they have done ever since, via a lot of variations of basic models, manufacturing of scooters etc etc.

Sorry, correction: "I decided to buy a new XT660 but it was out of stock had to wait for three months to get it."

Ah! You are younger than I thought.

My impressions of the XT660Z in the UK are:-
As new they have sold OK, up to more or less now, since first marketed here in 2008.
I suspect that sales have now slowed; people want the bike to be updated by Yamaha and will wait to see what develops.
Many private sellers of second hand bikes want to achieve more or less the same prices as are asked by the dealers.
Maybe for these reasons there are plenty of them available for sale here, judging by current advertising.

Still, it was the XT600 that I thought about with respect to the OP.
And the TTR600, which I owned a few years ago, and the XT225 which I have nowadays.
I have owned other Yamahas also, but once upon a time, and a long way back, I was more of a Honda buyer.

On the European front:-
My current European bike is a KTM and a replacement, if I was to replace it now, might come from Moto Guzzi or, perhaps, Aprilia.

Been there, done that, but only once - when I lived and worked in central Asia; for a simple reason, there was very little else available to buy.

Transalp 400 was discontinued in about 1996. Africa Twin was discontinued in Japan in 1999 (think it came back for a limited release once after that). I assume the marketing geniuses figured there was no market for them in Japan, but BMW "big off roaders" as they are called here can be seen all over the place (usually on the road of course). I wanted a new bike for my travels in 2003, so I ended up with a BMW.

I didn't want a BMW initially as it has a "luxury" brand image and I didn't wanna seem to be overflowing with money. A "down to earth" Honda would have been my preference. In hindsight, an Africa Twin would probably have looked as luxurious as a BMW F650 in rural Mongolia. But that was my pre-travel presumption.

Agree. My experience from motorcycle riding since 1970.

As well, the difference in specs is often overstated- meaning Euro bikes are not always so much better...or sometimes not at all!

In this case, "Image" is a sort of man made illusion, or perhaps a delusion?doh History and reality may tell a different story.

The fact is, the Japanese have been producing world class "travel bikes" since the 1970's. These models have also OUT SOLD BMW ... and ALL Euro brands combined ... by 20 to one ... as a conservative estimate, at least here in North America.

Maybe your buddy never heard of the Honda Gold Wing, ST1100, ST1300,
Yamaha Venture (now discontinued), FJR1300 to name just a few?

Kawasaki and Suzuki also made BIG travel bikes years ago (Voyager, Calvalcade). Kawi currently still does well with their Concours 1400, which compares to the big six BMW at nearly half it's price. Suzuki has the successful V-Strom, an excellent travel bike that I've crossed continents on ... 90K miles.

The Honda Gold Wing is a hugely popular bike in North America, probably not so much in EU, can't confirm that.

Another obvious answer as to why Japanese over Euro is the fact that BMW have made several serious mis-steps over the years, putting off or losing thousands of customers as a result. They also cultivated a reputation for arrogance that is not an illusion. But that was "Then".

In the last decade BMW have made great strides and done very well. During the same period, the Japanese have not done enough to compete, remained static (stagnate? :innocent:) while BMW drive forward pushing tech limits, improving customer service and remaining competitive price wise too.

So ... there is my short answer.

Can't pick one bike, have owned 50+ since about 1962, plus experience from testing bikes for a magazine for 20 years. (add 50 more)

Growing up in California, BMW wasn't much of a presence until the 1980's. But, if truth be told, my first two bikes were BOTH "European". First was a 1960 Triumph Tiger Cub (200cc single). I pushed that bike more than I rode it and it never ran right. (mostly due to lack of mechanical acumen)

Next bike was a late 50's Vespa 150. Great scooter that took me everywhere. But it was not perfect. Next came a Honda 50 Super Cub. An epiphany!

Not every Japanese bike was so good but suffice to say my introduction to Japanese bikes left a lasting impression ... but took a while to sink in just HOW GOOD the Honda really was. (I was only 16)

Continued with Euro bikes, racing Triumph and Bultaco as a teen, Motocross & Desert racing. They ALL broke down. Soon after, me and buddies got the crazy idea to go to Mexico on surf trips on our bikes.
Several Honda dual sport bikes followed. NONE broke down. Slowly I began to get the clear picture on Japanese bikes.

Lots of bikes since including BMW, KTM, Guzzi, BSA, Husqvarna, Triumph and ALL the big four ... and at least 50 test bikes including HD, Buell and on and on.

Currently own a Suzuki DR650 and a 1050 Triumph Tiger.
But, really, I'm a Japanese bike guy. They stand up to hard use, even torture and almost NEVER break down. Important with a travel bike.

PS: Chris, Have you ever toured a Japanese bike manufacturer? I was lucky enough to get a tour of Yamaha, round '93. Also got a tour of Triumph in 2003 and BMW, Spandau, Berlin, 1993.

Nothing comes close to Yamaha. If you can manage it, do it. :thumbup1:

I can certainly say why I started traveling on Japanese bikes - because at the time (early 70's) everything else, without exception, was total cr@p. Bear in mind that this was my personal opinion formed by a multitude of factors such as the social standing of British bikes at the time, style, engineering standards and the seeming reliability (or rather, lack of) of anything British owned by friends.

BMWs were for people my age now and as for anything else European - all the Spanish smokers, Ducati etc, I lumped them all together with the Soviet block two strokes as old tired designs without style or much substance. As value for money compared to the Japanese offerings, they all fell well short. Had it not been for the Japanese "invasion", or had they arrived five years later than they did I probably wouldn't have bothered - I would not have bought British. I wouldn't be biking now, and my life would have taken several different turns - maybe. I owe everything I am to a Yamaha. :laugh:

So how does that affect me now? Being old enough to not bother with the style elements any more I can see the production engineering shortcomings of Japanese bikes a lot more clearly and there's no doubt the Euro bikes have at the very least caught up. It might even be argued that the roles have reversed, with the Euro stuff looking the more modern and the Japanese designs looking, if not old, at least somewhat directionless and conservative. Nevertheless old prejudices die hard and this year's purchase will be a Honda. As others have said reliability is the no 1 priority for a travelling bike and after a lifetime of riding them I know what I'm getting.

I've had and known too many experiences of getting there on a Triumph but getting back on a recovery truck.

I wanted a twin-cylinder for smoothness but I didn't want a big GS, Varadero, 990 or Caponord. The choice of mid-size, multi-cylinder bikes back in 2008 was the new BMW F800GS, a new Honda XL700V or a second-hand Honda XRV750 Africa Twin. Although I seriously considered a Yamaha XT660Z Tenere, I went for the BMW.

I think the parallel twin KLE650 versys was around in 2008.
I had one about 3 years ago and wrote a review at that time:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...s-thread-65709

There is no brand loyalty in my case! I bought it because I was casting around for a change of bike and, talking with some guys who were riding them at the time, the model appeared to be une bonne idee.

So, at that time I had two Japanese bikes.

I had one of those also, and a 250cc Matchless and I was riding a BSA bantam quite a lot back in the 60s but it was not in my ownership.
They all broke down at different times in different circumstances: but that is why I remember those bikes and not so much the modern universal Jap machines (UJM).

Did you consider the DL650? Cheaper, more powerful, more comfortable and better handling than anything else under 900cc.

There's an interesting mix in the responses in here to the original question; the mix of reminiscence about the good old days and how the manufacturing of one nation in particular was superceded by that of another, along with the answers that the OP is probably seeking - i.e. how modern bikes are chosen to be purchased.

At least so far no one has said that they bought a bike after reading a test report by a journalist. :innocent:

The idea that japanese manufacturing killed off the old Brit bike manufacturing is complete rubbish. An urban myth.

Brit bikes were into decline from about the late 1930's. You only have to look at those manufacturers that were long gone before Honda started making lawnmowers. Brough, Vincent, Sunbeam, Douglas, Rudge and lots more. They all died long before the advent of Japan as a motorcycle manufacturer. Japan partly filled the void left by the demise of the old Brit bikes in the same way mammals filled the void left by the demise of the dinasaurs.

Although Triumph has been resurrected, it is in name only. The bikes are not for the market for which the old vintage bikes were made, cheap transport. They do not have the appeal to me of the old bikes. It is very rarely that I can look at a modern bike that I would want to own.

Reverse is true for me. There have been massive improvements in technology over the last couple of decades - let's face it, most road bikes were dangerously unsafe when cornering until the mid-late eighties when radial tyres for bikes, and proper frames started being built.

Brakes? Drum brakes on a bike are an absolute joke (sadly, most riders weren't laughing when they tried to stop quickly, however) and early disc brakes weren't much better either. By comparison, ABS is streets ahead when it comes to safety.

Who remembers having to regularly set ignition points, change sparkplugs and rejet carbies (going uphill to any sort of an altitude used to mean massive power losses) and compare this to today's EFI and computerised ignition module.

As for power, comfort, rideability, - not to mention style - they have all come ahead by leaps and bounds.

For me, the oldest bike I will touch is my '74 RD350 which I have owned for over 40 years - a bike that was at the cutting edge of '70s technology.

As for any european bike prior to the mid nineties, you have to be joking. :thumbdown:

:laugh:
Some truth there ... especially regards the classic brands you mention. But don't forget the final "surge" during the mid 60's to early 70's where Triumph/BSA exported more bikes to the USA in a few years than they'd sold in the previous 10 years. They broke every record. Triumph were a BIG deal here in California ... which sets ALL trends for the whole USA.

You can check the Triumph books by guys like Mick Walker and other historians. The old guard directors at Triumph/BSA group were tired after this "last fling" sending 10's of thousands of bikes to America.

Some of those last runs of bikes were the Triumph and BSA triples and some of the least reliable bikes Triumph/BSA group made. Porous castings, crap electrics, carbs and cams that wore out in 5000 miles.
I owned a '79 Bonneville Special, which was quite good. A rare thing.

By 1970 the Japanese were coming on strong with their CB750 inline four. But Triumph, BSA and Harley still were THE bikes to own ... and thousands in SoCal where I lived DID own British bikes.

But the big bosses at Triumph/BSA no longer cared about motorbikes, about the workers or about their country's industrial future. They drained the companies coffer's and fled into the night, selling off old new stock for pennies on the pound. But this came as no surprise to anyone paying attention at the time. They all knew it was coming.

:(
That's a shame. :helpsmilie: I'm rather proud of what Triumph have done ... and I'm an American ... but Brit bikes were part of me, heart & soul as a kid.

I don't like every model they've made but seems to me the "new" Bonneville is certainly a good basic bike for relatively cheap transport. And it's 20 times more reliable and long lived as it's predecessors. A bit expensive perhaps but more or less in line with current bikes. I also believe the current Street Triple line are some of the very best and inspirational bikes in motorcycling today. Stunning bikes in every way, IMHO. bier

I believe many can be prompted to buy a new bike from bike reviews.

Based on the feed back we got at City Bike (San Francisco) for the 20 years I was there, I found many advertising dealers would often say a customer mentioned reading the City Bike review of the bike in question ... and just had to see it in person and take a test ride. Many sold as a result. Most buyers read ALL reviews in every mag before buying, I DO believe they influence buyers to some extent.

I was rather proud of one case: the owner of a BIG multi line dealer claimed he sold 3 new V-Strom's based on my review ... and ended up selling 10 in that month. That is a BIG deal! Had to scrounge them from other, far away dealers to fill the orders.

Another writer at City Bike reviewed the new Ducati MultiStrada (2007).
Local dealer followed up and invited customers for test rides based on how much response he got from our bike review. He sold 17 Multi's in two weeks ... at around $20,000 a copy !! :eek3:

A good review can influence readers to buy ... or to at least check out a particular bike. Buying motorcycles is an emotional response, not always thought out or logical. But certain things can trigger interest if you know your audience ... and if they know you. :funmeteryes:

Mollydog what you say is soooooooo true..........


So in some way we can blame bike review's for the type of bikes that are on the market. Which is the same as last year but with more power. So many times I read some bike writer who is testing, some bike or other that has 182 BHP. Which is 2 BHP over last year's model. Then go's on to say that the two extra BHP makes all the difference. Or it wheelie's all over the place. Great stoppies. I need a bike that is low on maintance. will run for ever. Do 100 MPG, and cruse at 90+. Easy on my Azz. and will carry luggage.


Do they make one? not that I've seen.
John933

Back to Jap over European. I go for Jap, because, they are more reliable, don't leak oil, spare's are easy to come by, and most place's can fix them. European bike's where in my younger day's. When you went out in the morning to start them up. Would they go. You alway's had to have a plan "B" to get to where ever you where going with a European bike. A jap bike, was go out side, press the tit and she would fire up no problem. As long as you changed the oil, plug's, and filters. They would run for ever. But I stated my biking day's on a Honda, so was kind of spoilt.
John933

I still maintain that the Japs finished off the Brit bike manufacturing effort: I agree that they did not start the decline but they participated in the fall - putting in the bayonet to finish off the incipient corpse which was gasping at the time: put another way, they provided the customers with a better alternative in the market.
All the earlier businesses going bust, or amalgamating badges (Matchless/AJS for instance) was the prelude, as was occurring in the car industry - I well recall when Datsun started their dealerships here in the 60s.
Hey ho, that's business and lo and behold the likes of Triumph have risen from the ashes (dare we mention CCM here?)
Me!


The workforce were also very bloody minded at times, but true enough - mutual suicide from both sides of the workspace.
Now we have Japanese working methods in much of our manufacturing which they copied from someone else - I don't quite recall who, it's well over twenty years since I studied this topic.
Very recently a Brit has been appointed as the worldwide CEO for the McDonalds fast food business, so times have changed.

I quite believe it: I was just saying that those in here (all half dozen of us?) haven't said as much.
I haven't read a bike review in printed form in a number of years - not sure how long ago. Things have moved along - come to think of it, the "review" type of posts in here are quite disjointed, in a funny sort of way.
?c?

PS
Does this thread really belong in the pub?
It contains some very considered ideas IMO - maybe material for "which bike".
Just a thought.

I don't buy Japanese bikes these days for reasons really nothing to do with the products that they build which i think are now generally of a good to very high quality.

But i won't go into my reasons at all its a personal thing.

Right lets hold on to them hats !!!!! - here we go.

Now i am very particular to my very rosey tinted specs - comes with age me thinks - But to say the Japs were building quality back in the 70's seems to be stretching it more than a little bit

The actual build quality of many of the bikes was simply appauling, They were often very heavy,handled like bags of potatoes, paint peeled - that's if they were painted my Yamaha (an xs 1100 sport) had no paint on the underside of the tank, the engine paint peeled within months, chrome 1 micron thick if you were lucky and the downpipes rusted quicker than a Lancia beta.

Engines were often reliable but dont forget the many were not - design failures chocolate cams etc come to mind - you just do not hear of the failures so much these days. Even the premium jap stuff of the day were not in the same league as the premium European built bikes.

Generally the bikes rusted the electrics could not cope with wet conditions, (am i talking about jap or italian here - hard to tell isn't it they were both bad) but the japs also added cheap frames some were pressed steel and fairly poor quality with flex very common. cheapest of the cheap brakes, suspension and tyres all built down to a budget for very dry climates in The wet cold UK - They were terrible.

Performance wise against European competition at the time they were poor (i owned Ducatis, Laverdas, Moto guzzis and BMW's during that period the laverda was very very reliable ( and had jap electrics !), the Ducati i also used as an everyday bike and travelled often between Cornwall and Scotland it never let me down My BMW r65 was very reliable and my bmw r80 and r100s was exceptionally good. (my Guzzis were generally poor on the reliability front and worse than the japs on finish -i have owned several since that time all have been pretty unreliable - but they are still my favourite bike !!


These days I think the Jap's Builds good quality at the budget, with good engines and electrics if largely bland bikes in my eye (rose tints coming on here).

But look to quality stuff like KTM , Norton (Big price) certainly - Ducati and even to a degree Moto guzzi have upped the quality control and reliability and finish and build in many instances and i would say (slipping on those specs again- are again ahead of Japan on build, quality, design and materials. (I do not include BMW here as they sold themselves down the river to the marketing men big style).

Anyway give me a bike designed and built in a European factory with its foibles, failings and eccentricities (moto Guzzi , Norton and to a degree KTM any day over a bland bit of tin from the land of the rising sun.

By the way i currently run a ducati engined cagiva a 750 with 60hp good mid range torque, very reliable weighs in at 180kgs, thats quite a bit lighter than many jap 650's with far better and more usable power, suspension etc. and its 20 years old and still going strong.

On the main content of this subject though it doesn,t really matter what you choose - most bikes will do the job to a reasonable degree - you just need to chose your route and the area you ride to suit.

Currently I own a 2003 Thunderbird and 2005 Enfield.

If I had to do a really long trip away from first world resources I would choose to take the Enfield. the thunderbird is much like the BMW I had but much better (for me) even so It is not a bike that takes to being offroad. I don;t mean 100's of miles without roads, Just a trip across a wet grassy field to pitch my tent would be "exciting" The Enfield wouldn't mind a bit.

What you have to remember is the old bikes were designed for a different market and a different purpose in a different time. they were disigned to be hand built by craftsmen ( which is another reason why the quality dropped when they built large numbers at the end of the 60's. had to run on 80 ron fuel, monograde oils and natural rubber crossply tyres. Also no motorways, just the little A and B roads where doing 45mph was making good time. their world is gone. Like wise few modern bikes would work very well if you were to transport them back to 1935.

What do they say Jake. The victors write history?


Or each read history in different way's. I came up through the sixties seen the jap bike's come in to the UK market. Where the UK bike maker's where not interested in the small 50cc run around's. Let them have that end of the market, we'll take the rest.


Let's go back to the end of the second world war. Before my time by the way. When there was no Japanese bike manufactures. Brit bike's ruled the world. At the end of the war, Brittan was heavy in to deit. So the government of the day made the rule export or die. That's when the world was buying Brit bike. Why because none where on sale in the UK. Or what was, where of small quaintly. There was no R&D in the war year's on bike's. So all they could build was pre war bike's in a pre war way. And lot's of them. A little bit off the beaten track. If any one can remember the 50's. I can, at that time the road's where full of push bike's taking men to work. The main road to the big industrial estate's where eight ten abreast of bikes. You could not get a car on the road, or just about. The odd side car out fit, which was ex Army sale's. The money was coming in. Then you had the house building project. Took a lot of men to build houses. In the them day's people where leavening job one day and get a new job the next, just for a penny or tupence an hour more. That's history.


In Japan. Honda started to put small engines in to push bike's. The one's that has a wheel that rubbed up against the back tyre and drove you along. But most of this you know. I'm saying it for the younger reader's who don't. And it grew quite rapidly in to making small 50cc mopeds. What made Honda was the C50 and the C90. All nice people ride a Honda. When it got to when Honda was selling over a 1,00 unit's a month. It was time to go racing. Honda picked the TT. Racing 125 and 250. The first time they went out they got the Azz kicked big time. Time to go home.




Design failures chocolate cams etc come to mind


This one come's up time and time again. It was not so much a design failure as more a quality control failure on the materials used in making the cam's. But by then there where a lot of bike out there failing. So it was stop making them and back to the drawing board. The over head cam shaft used in the failing VFR, is still used to day. So it's not a design fault, but as I said, it was a material fault.


The break through for Honda was the Dream bike. What we know as the super dream or the CB series. Honda is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in Japan and has been since it started production in 1955. At its peak in 1982, Honda manufactured almost three million motorcycles annually. With that kind of sale's they can't be a bad bike.
John933

You haven't missed much in the mags. Not really what they used to be, IMHO, but the Brit mags at least let the writers stretch their legs a bit and get deeper into a bike's personality. The USA mags are terrible at this. A paragraph or two and that's it ... no depth, no real insight provided. Most of the mags are ALL ads ... even more than before.

I have ridden/owned both European and Japanese bike, BMW, Suzuki, Honda and loved them all. They all had there own little quirks which made them unique in there own right
At the moment I have my first Yamaha (XT600E 03)
Why did I go with it? Well after riding off road for about 3 years it was time I went back to road riding and I was also getting the travel bug and eventually wanted to ride my bike in another country. After doing a lot of research on the different types of bike which are good for adventure travel i.e. KLR, GS, XT, DR etc I ended up with the XT by chance as I saw it on the pages of this site, went and had a look, it is pretty much good to go with the mods and the price and milage were good. So home it came.

Wayne

Jake,
I recall reading some of your thoughts in an earlier thread, and that was a while ago.
You might like to read this book:-
Quartered Safe Out Here - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The thread continues to have a good mix of why we bought bikes in the past with why we buy bikes today.


What happened is that the Japanese are very, very good at copying ideas.
I am pretty sure that they got the management principles from USA-based academic research and papers published on the subject of Quality Assurance (QA).
In contrast, the UK was much slower to take up the concepts of QA which in themselves have developed enormously since the 1970s (for all I know such concepts will be ongoing).
Along the way, these principles dealt with the metallurgy issues that are mentioned in other posts.

So, a Brit bike and an Indian manufactured bike with a Brit badge.
That's a nice mix.

[QUOTE=Jake;493947]
Anyway give me a bike designed and built in a European factory
[/QUOTE
These days, it is very difficult to achieve this; probably impossible. My 1990s TTR600 was badged as a Yamaha and assembled in Italy (the "Belgado" bike).

Triumph have a very large proportion of their manufacturing in Thailand.

On the car front, Toyota, Honda and Nissan, to name just 3 big Jap outfits, employ 1000s of UK workers and 1000s more across other countries.

Oh yes, the Chinese are coming; this was very noticeable at the NEC show last November.
I also noticed it during a visit to the French national air show in 1997.

The list is endless, and the reason is that business has no boundaries - it is totally international: where the profits go and the overall "morality" of this (the ethics) is a whole different ball game.

John 933 - The break through for Honda was the Dream bike.

My first road bike was a honda sl 125, the second a Honda Dream - (Not the super dream the one with the bubble tank).

Chocolate cams etc - i agree the Japs either fixed the faults or scrapped whole designs and runs of bikes and started again. Mr Honda was a brilliant engineer and designer - more so he knew when to admit he got it wrong and go back to the drawing board - something Europeans did not learn to do so well.

As people say the Japanese learnt to copy, then add quality and eventually design to an now excellent standard.

Just because they manufactured in large numbers back in the 70's / 80's did not make them good - they were simply affordable - European bikes were often more than double the price. (then again what were the japanese workers being paid ?.

The Japs got there in the end and now build excellent budget, mid range and top end machines - I still wouldn't not really chose one over a European made and designed bike. Simply i like to support western markets and also like the history behind the manufacturing of some of the old marques from Europe. (that apart from my views of putting money into eastern markets).


I would never try to compare the British bike industry to the Japanese as its already been said - that was largely a historic and failed industry.

At that time early 80's the Europeans - Laverda, Ducati etc were still way ahead of the game. I tried a Honda cx - got rid it was a pig and bought a Laverda alpina 500s as my every day bike, simply better in every way very reliable, easy, light fast and it handled. You just needed to look outside the box and the Magazines to find the bikes made in europe were light years ahead of the masses being chucked out of Japan at the time. even the likes of BMW's flat twins were better built, more reliable and many are still on the road unlike the rust buckets from japan from that era that are not around or stand in private restored collectors halls.

Eventually the Europeans also lost the way they tried to take on the jap's on price then struggled to maintain momentum, quality, race wins or anything else - The japs had come to stay and were winning.

Europe has fought back and is now back in the game with some excellent products and a different approach to quality the stuff people don't notice amongst the bling. That's where the Europeans are making a comeback. Excellent and top components along with quality and attention to small details.

Walkabout thanks for the link to the book - I will look it up and read it - loks interesting. Cheers Jake.

Farqhuar you said - Reverse is true for me. There have been massive improvements in technology over the last couple of decades - let's face it, most road bikes were dangerously unsafe when cornering until the mid-late eighties when radial tyres for bikes, and proper frames started being built.

Again you are looking at the Japanes market, European bikes did handle, brake and go fast doing it all very well.
I have to agree with OLD BMW that older bikes are for me better. Modern bikes by comparison are often lardy, carry to many gadgets and now with all the safety rules ABS, traction control etc added take away from the rider a massive amount of rider skill, input and feel for the machine.

Technology means the machines are becoming far more complex and rely on dealers to sort out even minor problems. They may be faster but its simply not needed - if the Machines were lighter and less powerful - just more usable. A ducati or Laverda road bike from the 70's put out 70 / 80hp and did 140 top end on a good day (120/130 in real rideability terms). Do we really need 150hp on an off road bike weighing more than a Laverda Jota. ?

Many of the bikes you mentioned are about a decade after I started biking and the Euro / Jap contrast at that point couldn't be greater. Friends in London who couldn't get to Southend (about 30 miles) on their C15s and Bantams or the south coast on their A65s (about 60 miles) without breaking down while we went to Morocco and Greece on Jap stuff- 250 Yamaha / 300cc Honda - without any real problems. 650 and 750 Triumphs that couldn't do a long trip (Greece / Black sea / Italy) without having to be rebuilt or recovered while a 650 Yamaha / 550 Honda had only minor issues or no problems at all. Even towards the end of the 70's when BMWs were starting to be widely used they'd need more attention that our Jap stuff (earlyGold Wings by then).

I agree that the quality of the materials probably wasn't as good as the British or Euro stuff but to be honest I didn't care then and I don't care now. What mattered to me was the design, how reliable they were and "image". Value for money was probably in there somewhere but not that high on the list.

Mollydog's memory that BSA and Triumph (forget about Harley!) were THE bikes to own on the West coast around 1970 is a strange inversion of what my London based opinion was at the time. BSA et al were just oil covered greasy throwbacks with downmarket working class connotations and had lack of imagination failure written all over them. Can't afford a car or not able to pass your test - ride a BSA with a stick for a sidecar on L plates.

The Japanese stuff otoh were high tech, brightly coloured and forward looking. Modern cutting edge designs that worked and kept on working. These were leisure bikes rather than ride to work plodders and as such represented our London vision of what California was like - bright metallic paint and chrome glinting in the sunshine. A lifestyle. All I needed was a blonde girlfriend to finish the illusion!

In addition, because they were dismissed as here today gone tomorrow (how can anything rev that high and not fall to bits) Jap cr@p, it annoyed all of the ageing 60's rockers when we turned up anywhere on them.

In general I didn't (and still don't) pay much attention to magazine tests when it comes to choosing what to buy. All the Brit bike fanaticism and ride the flag marketing that filled the pages of mags back then put me off. I could see with my own eyes piles of broken Triumph parts littering the sides of roads yet year after year the new, improved, better than ever road tests were extolling their virtues. I nearly got caught by the long range Norton Combat Commando and how it could effortlessly drone on for hundreds of miles on a tankful of fuel but fortunately came to my senses in time.

There was one article however that did it for me. An oddball article, it compared two bikes - a 500cc Velocette and the then new Kawasaki H1. The Velo represented to me everything that was wrong with Brit bikes - an old design, an old image, an old mindset, whereas the H1 was cutting edge (it was 1970!) That article did it for me. I couldn't afford one then (although I came very close to blowing my student grant on one a couple of years later) but as soon as I could I bought one - and I still have it now.

However - that was then and then is now a different country. I look at what the Chinese are turning out and wonder when they'll come up with something that'll make the Japanese offerings look old and tired. History won't repeat itself but there is a lot of corporate complacency in the Japanese factories in recent years. That it's possible to compete with them now is evidenced by Triumph, BMW, Harley et al but they all have the drawback of only producing relatively small numbers of big bikes. The Chinese seem to be doing what the Japanese did back then - starting from the bottom up and producing in volume. At the moment it seems more like the 1950's with a huge range of never heard of them manufacturers but I suspect things will change.

Possibly even the "Belgarda" Dave?

Mezo.

All good input that adds to our "corporate" memories of the good old days, while relating to the present day conditions.
There are about a dozen of us rather than the half dozen that I thought earlier - so, in truth, we are not a massively significant sample for the statisticians purposes.

As for Triumph, I believe that they are well aware of the need for smaller products - I seem to recall that there have been items about a new 250cc in the fairly recent past; even that is a big bike for some markets.
Aren't they aiming to enter the bike market in India??
KTM ditto.

I also remember Yamaha announcements of the past few years:-
One related to their need to get into 3 cyl bikes for the "western " market; that was a while ago and they are now doing exactly that.

The second was more interesting, and it was about where the company profits arise:-
Yamaha profits are predominantly from marketing 125cc bikes for the far east. Period.
The "western" market, including all the stuff about GP racing, Rossi et al I assume is merely a sideshow in terms of the company trade; it provides them with "facetime" on the world media.
When folks write on here about how certain manufacturers need to produce the "perfect" bike for adventuring/travelling/whatever I truly believe that they do not realise what a minority they are in this world - even some of those who do acknowledge the point tend to then dismiss it.

Anyone for a Hero Honda?

Oops, it's had a makeover:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_MotoCorp
But it remains the largest bike manufacturer in the world.

That will do!
I think we sunk the other one back in 1982.
:innocent:

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/be/be37b...920ae0457b.jpg

Mezo.

Never considered it. Just didn't float my boat. Personal choice.

Once upon a time (quite a few years ago) a "wise old man" aka a bike mechanic who was on the verge of retiring, told me never to buy anything built before approximately the mid-1960s. This was in the days when you could walk into the workshop in a dealership and actually talk with the guys working on the bikes.
When I asked the rather obvious question, he went on to say that the developments that took place in materials technology/metallurgy during world war 2 did not filter into mainstream manufacturing until that time.
In essence, his view was that most things made before, say, 1965 were based on the standards used when road vehicles were first developed.

This all rang true to me: why should the UK factories update their supply chain, increase their own raw material costs, retool or whatever else would be necessary when everything they were making was flying out of the showrooms?

[QUOTE=Mezo;494090]http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/be/be37b...920ae0457b.jpg

Mezo.[/QUOTE

An extract from the link below:

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.


People | Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit

:offtopic: but it is sunday morning!

Not here mate :mchappy:

Mezo.

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:36
-- from the bottom of the page.:rofl:

And the year is 1436 in some parts of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

Try telling that to someone kicking frantically at an xt 500 on a cold damp January morning in the peeing rain or riding a Honda cb 550 in the rain on two - no three - no one - ooops none cylinders Hic Hic blat phart. cough vrooom vrroooom back to one cylinder. - me thinks there are some rosy specs being worn here. Jake. It wasnt always the europeans that led the dance of death.

OT (mostly)


An American called Demming from 1945. Came up with the notion that quality stems not from black art skills or inspection with an iron rod, but from making things easy to do. This was not acceptable to either European "craftsmen" who made money out of doing things the hard way or America bosses who made their money forcing others to do things the hard way and as quickly as possible. Demming went to work in Japan and by integrating production engineering from paper to product (another European problem where the designer ruled and mere foremen had to sort the rest*) made Japanese products what they were by 1975. Modern techniques just amplify the basics.


* I'm afraid one of the great engineering heroes gave us the worst example. One Dr. B.N. Wallis designed the Vickers Windsor bomber in 1943. Every component from wing root to tip was a different thickness to give optimum weight and you had to use a tuning fork to get the tension right. They built three then scrapped the whole project.


This is now such a well known system any company can adopt it, hence a Chinese bike company with the right managers could out produce Honda. Honda have the advantage of years of training but each year the advantage gets slimmer.


Andy

I just read this .. and a thought came to me....

velocette 500 has held the 24 hour land speed record for a 500cc bike since 1961 ( and still hold it) Not bad for a crap old design bike running on points, lucas electrics, monograde dino oil and crossply rubber tyres :)

The York to London 4-Horse chariot record held by Biggus Dickus and his slave #LXIX set in AD49 still stands. This despite the large number of naked blue-painted people along the route throwing things.


Sadly, I believe this record like the Velocette one are likely to remain, as only a large company could afford to break them and to do so would have little commercial value. You can imagine the marketing man saying "Vello-who???"


;-)


Andy

Possibly BMW were thinking similarly, but with a different conclusion, when they put in their effort for the 2014 TT with their 1000cc inline 4 cyl.

Yes it was a sad day when my local Velocette dealer closed down. And as it was only a couple of years ago I remember it well.

Thing is I'm sure the Velo is probably the better bike - which is why all the local (or even national) owners kept the business going for so long. The Kawasaki drinks fuel like there's a hole in the tank, is a p.i.a. to keep in tune, is uncomfortable and tiring to ride and deserves its reputation of being likely to kill you if you don't concentrate when riding it. It's the only one of my current bunch of wrecks (and from memory the only bike I've ever owned) I've never taken out of the country.

But I would never ever have bought a Velo - or even it's butch big brother, Vincent - even when they were giving them away in the 70's. Not unless I needed a boat anchor anyway. The oil leaks represented the middle age owners incontinence, the chuffing noises were their smokers cough and their stately progress looked like failing mental faculties. All stuff I saw in my grandparents.

On the other hand the scream of the Kawasaki's engine, the way the front would lift out of corners, the transition from Clark Kent to Superman as the revs rose - it needed as much adrenalin as petrol to get you down the road. The Brits were selling a bike, the Japs were selling an interesting future, a lifestyle, - you'd be a road god on the H1, the local plumber on the Velo (although my local plumber actually rides a 30's Brough these days ! :rolleyes2:).

Now, complete b@ll@cks though all of that is, it's what the Japs brought to the bike world and it's why I still look east if I'm in the market for something new. I might look at Euro offerings but tend to spend my money in the orient. Brainwashed? - my psychiatrist says not, but I did buy one of those Japanese sportscars, Rotus or Lotus or whatever they're called :rofl:

jake said - Give me a bike designed and built in a European factory any day
[/QUOTE Walkabout
These days, it is very difficult to achieve this; probably impossible. My 1990s TTR600 was badged as a Yamaha and assembled in Italy (the "Belgado" bike).


Try visiting the Moto guzzi factory in mandello de lario, Italy The factory dates back to the early days of Moto guzzi, the bikes are designed and built on the site, they have wind tunnel test centres, the museum and some of the old boys testing and building the bikes are almost as old as the history of the marque. I think the only major change is they stopped casting their wheels on site a few years back and moved the foundry to another place up the road. Built the way they used to be foibles and all. The factory dates from 1921 - they upadted it a bit - they put a new sign on the roof on 2007 and a new sign on the gates. !

Many of the KTM's are designed and built in Austria, as well as Ducati still alive and kicking in their old factory in Bologna. Italy.

A Lot of years back a few lads from the UK Laverda club went to the Laverda factory - on route one crashed and had to leave his bike in Northern Italy. On hearing this during the factory Visit -Massimo Laverda (co owner director) instructed a crew to go collect the bike - ordered it to be rebuilt and handed back to the lad - a gesture of generousity and loyalty all at no cost Its a personal thing owning an Italian bike You become part of the larger family. !

Doubt Mr Hondokawasamaha would do the same.

Jake.

Thanks Jake!
I had not fully appreciated the extent to which Moto G have stuck to producing their own parts, as you describe above.
Certainly, a visit to their production facility has to be on the bucket list.
(Damn, there's a title for a new thread!)

I truly hope that my grandkids never see me in that light!

I love moto guzzi, one of my favourite makes of bikes in reality - you can feel the history in them, they still feel a bit hand made. problem is i have rarely owned or encountered a really reliable one until its gone through a number of changes and reworkings to fix all the little foibles.

I dont have one at the moment but have owned quite a few models over the years.

I know its sad and its no where near as good as many of the other bikes around but i still quite fancy a Moto guzzi tt650 - a simplified and lighter version of a bmw r65g/s weighing in at 165kg (30 kg lighter than a BMW r65gs), shaft drive, 48 hp ( compared to 27hp or 46hp for the bmw) plus the cylinders are more out of the way and with ooodles of low down torque, top speed 170km/h ( 105mph) compared to 90mph for the BMW, cruise all day at 80 mph and frugal on fuel. However they again are a guzzi so for serious off road travel would need a bit of reworking but for a bit of light touring like i now do maybe around Iceland or just pottering here and there just the job for an old gadgie like me. There is a 350 version available at the moment in a dealers but the 650,s are thin on the ground. Known problems are the rear suspension set up, the rear bevel drive and the small tank all can be changed to more usable options but really you should not have to.

http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...psd450f2cf.jpg

Maybe with the success of the v7 range they will re introduce a tt from that range - not just a dressed up one to look like a scrambler version but something a little more focused. Then again we are talking Guzzi here and they rarely seem to follow the market needs as well as they could.

I think the guzzi V7 classic is the best looking bike being built today.. maybe one day i will own one.. but which to sell ??? It certainly ticks all my boxes..

.... and Triumph rebuilt Ted Simon's bike 3 times, IIRC.
Once at factory in UK before departure!
Again in India at Triumph dealer ...
and somewhere else I can't recall ... but pretty sure.

Ted also did a few rebuilds himself along the way.

Also ... the Japanese have done plenty ... they just don't like to blow their own horn regards their altruism.

You won't be disaponted. Piaggio seem to have kept the tooling but cleared out the fettling files and just-in-case **** under the assemblers benches that caused half the weird variation. Coming up on 6000 miles and not so much as the headlight adjusted. 300 mile range and tubeless tyres too.

The scrambler will be a dress up. The dealers are making them already.

Andy

I may be wrong on this but my immediate thoughts would be :

I think in each instance it's good of the companies to do the things they did BUT were there other motives ?.

Just pulling on some dark grim specs whilst holding a big magnifying class, a pipe and wearing a herring bone deerstalker hat. Right comfortably into Detective mode lets have a look.:detective:

The Honda / Emilio Scott bike - maybe a world record in it reflecting on Honda - so its a bit like advertising - maybe worth it for Honda ? Still it appears on the surface to certainly be more good will and help than anything negative.

The Harley Tsunami Bike - nice Gesture and story - no doubt and hopefully with a huge dollop of good will - but again a massive press gesture that put Harley on the front pages - I would question the real motive here. It would appear the owner Mr Yokayama has far more pressing things in his life currently - than getting involved in Harley bikes and appears to have tried to side swipe any attention - Harley it appears both in the press and at the museum have hit the jackpot for their part in this. Is it clever marketing and advertising or a helping hand ?
I hope my take on this is wrong - maybe a bit harsh of me to say so. But often money, sales and being seen to be the good fellow seems to be the big hammer with some companies - just like politics really. Underneath they are just lining their own pockets and nests even more.

Ted Simon was helped by Triumph a lot agree - I can't remember but I sem to remember something along the lines of the bosses at triumph decline help and it was the workers that took this first rebuild on board unnofficial like i may be mixing it up with another tale but it seems to ring a bell. Then when the bosses realized there was a some promotion to be had they stepped in to help. Be mindful that this was a triumph and if anyone wanted it to reach the other end of Europe then some special care would have been required so the workers wanted the bike to reflect well on them and their work. Ted was doing something that could reflect on the company big style - again they knew Ted was a journalist and was going to write a book about his travels - was there something in this for triumph ?.

Massimio Laverda a small motorcycle company - a side kick to the combine harvester factory in reality, fixing up a bike for a GB club member an unknown person who was from a different country - It never made the press back here it might of been in the local rag in Italy I do not know, there was no big thing just a helping hand to a fellow rider - or have i got my rosey specs on again.

I am sure lots of companies may well have helped out riders in unfortunate circumstances i think that's great - The Laverda one is one i had heard of years ago whilst riding laverdas long before computers and media like these days. A time when loyalty and customer service really meant a lot.
It would be great if more bike companies held out the hand now and again to loyal customers when things have gone wrong - as often as not its quite the opposite in this modern world of consumerism.

3 wheel - Andy, Real nice to hear your enjoying your V7, they are nice looking - I was just reading about the MK11 shame you can't opt for no ABS or Traction control - its stuff i dont like on a bike, but other than that they are sweet as a nut.

Tchus jake.

Ted Simons Triumph was at the time of the workers collective IIRC. A sort of management buyout come communist uprising against the state of the place and the fact it was heading for oblivion. Going on strike and working for yourselves when your company was going to the wall was a sign of the times along with chocolate brown wall paper, purple flairs, facial hair that made everyone look like serial killers etc.


OT; ABS/ASR does nothing until you get very close to locking a wheel, so no change in how it rides. If it bothers you that much, pull the fuse it reverts to non-ABS. Only hassle is if it won't put the light out on MOT day. You get a bigger battery as part of the deal. Part of type approval on bikes from next year.


Andy

Great comments Jake! bier

I'm not sure of the protocol or precise history regards Simon's first re-build and support at the old Meridan works. But it got done ... and Triumph got their name out there ... RTW. Sad, too late for them by that point really. :(

Here's a more recent and interesting Tidbit from Ted's last big round the world ride. Must be 6 or 7 years back by now? Ted rode a fully customized BMW R80 on that ride ... you may remember it, the one that fell on his leg and broke it ... stranding him in Africa for a few months. doh

Interesting part of this story is that in planning/prepping for the trip Ted FIRST went to Triumph, met with Mr. Bloor or his representatives. Ted wanted to repeat his epic RTW ride on a Triumph ... as you would do! :thumbup1:

Triumph flatly refused to provide a bike or to sponsor him. Talk about stupid!
Ted kind of burnt his bridges with Triumph at that point, speaking out publicly, hammering Triumph for their unwillingness to help. Ted had been all set to repeat his ride on a "modern" Bonneville. Never happened.

This is nearly as bad as KTM's faux paux in turning down Ewan & Charlie for their Long Way Round debacle on BMW R1150GS - ADV ... all 318 kgs. worth! :oops2:

Another Kudos for HD is the complete rebuild they did for long time MC Globetrotters Peter and Kay Forwood. Total ground up re-build done at HD factory ... this done with something like 250,000 miles on their bike.

bier

Andy i tried my best to persuade Debz (iain and Debz) to buy a V7 when she was looking around for a mid size bike for everyday commute to work - she looked at the V7 - Iain tried to convince her but she just went and bought a Trans alp - (saying it was all about the money as if anyone would believe that excuse !!) the trans alp she assures me is a great bike she is happy with - but to my eyes it hasn't got the heart or soul of a Guzzi and certainly not the Italian style and flair.
When you next see her she need chastised and made aware of the error of her ways. (good luck if you try that one mind)

Tchus Jake.

As I've mentioned many times I know nothing about Triumphs other than having watched many of them disassemble themselves on road trips in the bad old days. When the "only the name is the same" new company started up (in the 90's ?) I had a change of heart and was very impressed with the Kawasaki copies they'd come up with.

Old habits die hard though and it took a decade or two before I ever considered buying one. I really liked the 800XC when it came out though and decided that if I was ever going to buy British this would be it. A new company, a modern Japanese-alike technology design, what's not to like about that. Put my prejudices aside and look at what they are now.

What's changed my mind is the raft of bad publicity that seems to be gathering around them like a miasmic evil spirit - broken frames, peeling paint, rust, electrics - all airily dismissed with a wave of the warranty department's hand. Now an inability to see a marketing coup if they tripped over it in the car park. What's the point of mining Triumph's 50's and 60's legacy for model names if they ignore one of the (very) few 70's successes the company had - even if it was more by accident than design. Ted's book was hugely influential and it amazes me that nobody at Triumph realised the sales value of a follow up. Does nobody read at Triumph? If it was "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" years ago it would be "buy book on Sunday, buy bike on Monday" these days.

I'm beginning to wonder whether some kind of short sightedness gene got transferred over with the Triumph name. Public perception of your products is almost more important these days than the product itself - look at Apple as an example of that. It may be of course that many of the reports of poor customer service are just the disgruntled revenge postings of owners whose dodgy warranty claims have been rightfully refused but whatever the truth of it I have no desire to spend money on something that could just end up in endless arguments or considerable expense if there's a problem. I haven't had that for years with our cars or virtually anything else that hasn't come from Poundland. Even if it really isn't like that and all their spares are gold plated, it's how it seems to me and the Ted Simon episode only increases my disquiet.

Backofbeyond - I bought one of Mr Bloors triumphs shortly before buying a KTM 950 when they first came out.
The triumph was bought as a two up tourer really it was a tiger 955i, it was new and i knew before having ridden it 100 miles I had made a mistake. It was very heavy - top heavy, wallowed and i did not like the engine that much (I had hoped it might have had some of the raw edge of my jotas - being three cylinder and all - but it just felt like a jap bike to me) no character and compremises everywhere .
Before three hundred mile had been racked up the gear lever fell off when i was on a motorway (apparently my fault for not checking the bolts had been done up !) and i was left too ride two up through lots of traffic stuck in top gear to reach a dealer to buy another gear lever. A few weeks afterwards a few miles south of Edinburgh the bike started to wallow really badly - i thought i had a puncture - turned out 7 spokes had sheared on one side of the rear wheel - which was wobbling frantically trying to take the other spokes out - The bike was recovered back to the dealers (a Bloke i had known for a good few years) where i got a full refund from the dealer towards the KTM which was pretty much almost faultless for the time i had it and it covered a good few miles along with some descent long distance trips two up.
it certainly put me off Triumph - although lots of people love them and have no problems with them - they are after all just copies of jap bikes. Mine though was a Monday morning or Friday afternoon one me thinks probably built by a bloke who had trained some years earlier at the meridin works.

Jake.

Wow! That's quite a load of Triumph issues! :oops2: :rain:
I guess I've just been lucky with my 3 Tigers (many other Triumph's tested going back to '95, first year Triumph sold in USA).

I've done several Triumph launches in the USA, 1999, 2002, 2003.

True, 1st generation "modern" Triumphs had their share of problems, no where near as reliable as typical Japanese product of those years. :thumbdown:

Early Triumphs had:
Sprag clutch issues (possible total loss of motor!), air box and air filter as ONE unit, PITA to service.
Valves got beat down into head early, no longer adustable. Most riders of the early 885's did not get much more than 50K miles. I got less. (30K) But a good riding bike despite the problems. Better off road than newer Tigers, in my experience riding BOTH.

But overall 2nd generation Tiger ('99) was a big step forward. Alu frame, F.I. all new save motor. I attended USA Tiger launch in SoCal where former Triumph America CEO Mike Vaughn was our ride leader. Fun ride! Good bike!

Bought a '99 in UK, rode round Europe over a 3 year period.
20K miles riding UK, France, Spain, Portugal and Morocco. Tigre never missed a beat. Valves stayed in spec. :thumbup1:

The top heavy issue is certainly A FACT. One had to be very careful off road, but never bothered me ON road. I rode through all the twisty roads of Southern Spain and Andorra's mountainous narrow tracks, had a ball. Not the sportiest bike but not bad once you learn it.

My current Tiger is a '07 1050. No issues. ... but needed suspension re-do. Custom revalved forks and Ohlins shock put it on better footing. But Tigers are still top heavy ... even the new 800's to some extent.

My 1050's chassis was made in Thailand and it's been perfect. And it's been tested hard, doing unintended jumps with very hard landings. :nuke::oops2:

In '03 I visited the Triumph factory in Hinckley. Very impressive set up. I saw frames on the trollies from Thailand and boxes of matched motor sets being unpacked from A.R.T. of Japan. (supplier to Suzuki among others) Pistons, cam blanks, et al. The Thai factories took NO UK jobs according to Exec's there. Big boost for Triumph expanding to Thailand.

On the MANY Triumph forums I've been part of I've not seen a lot of problems. Not perfect, but generally good with mostly happy owners.
Just my .02 cents.

bier

Talking older british bikes I went through a stage of buying and using British bikes - but soon went back to the Germans and Italian stuff.

This was my Royal Enfield 700 super meteor - two 350 barrels on a common crank a nice twin long stroke engine it was very well built and fairly quick really the only problem of note was a dragging clutch in hot weather when in heavy traffic but it made a very good everyday bike - I tried fitting the motor into a Norton Featherbed frame but it was way too tall so it ended up just being used as a get to work bike. I ended up selling it to a mate at work.

The next is my triumph t140 - just terrible i could never feel love the thing it was just not for me - I can still look at triumphs and think yep i would like that but the reality does not work for me. Funny enough i was torn between a triumph t140 and a BMW r65 when I was starting out on bikes - i bought the r65 which took me to North Africa and back without a single issue so pretty glad i never got the trumpet. The t140 made a hundred mile journey into an epic adventure and was always something to talk about afterwards.

The last one was my Indian Enfield that i built up into a scrambler, actually quite nice but very basic and so slow it was hard to live with in modern traffic but on a back country road it did put a smile on your face. It was physically to small and backbreaking on the ride quality - again a 100 mile trip felt like 500 mile - i take my hat off to people doing trips on these things.
http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...ps15b27e0b.jpg

http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...psd360a5ec.jpg

http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...ps715f2c34.jpg

I think Black seems to be a bit of a theme when buying British (or Indian being British)
Jake.

Here's a reason not to buy a marque
 

Yes, Triumph have come along in leaps and bounds since that phoenix arose from the ashes, but I haven't owned one since I had a tiger cub in the mid-60s.
So, 50 years have elapsed and no more Triumphs in my ownership.
I can't really pin down why I have not owned another over all those years but I do recall what a UK based ex-dealership told me, perhaps 10-12 years ago: this came from the owner of the dealership who had stopped selling Triumph motorcycles but continues to sell the big 4 Japanese marques.
"He became tired of Triumphs "policy" at that time of asking the dealerships to carry out "secret" recalls without formally calling such actions a recall".
His words, not mine, but he didn't have to tell me.

Maybe they have upped their game more recently for warranty issues, but that lack of transparency did nothing to encourage me to give them my business.


Ford cars come to mind immediately!