Currently I own a 2003 Thunderbird and 2005 Enfield.

If I had to do a really long trip away from first world resources I would choose to take the Enfield. the thunderbird is much like the BMW I had but much better (for me) even so It is not a bike that takes to being offroad. I don;t mean 100's of miles without roads, Just a trip across a wet grassy field to pitch my tent would be "exciting" The Enfield wouldn't mind a bit.

What you have to remember is the old bikes were designed for a different market and a different purpose in a different time. they were disigned to be hand built by craftsmen ( which is another reason why the quality dropped when they built large numbers at the end of the 60's. had to run on 80 ron fuel, monograde oils and natural rubber crossply tyres. Also no motorways, just the little A and B roads where doing 45mph was making good time. their world is gone. Like wise few modern bikes would work very well if you were to transport them back to 1935.

The thread continues to have a good mix of why we bought bikes in the past with why we buy bikes today.


What happened is that the Japanese are very, very good at copying ideas.
I am pretty sure that they got the management principles from USA-based academic research and papers published on the subject of Quality Assurance (QA).
In contrast, the UK was much slower to take up the concepts of QA which in themselves have developed enormously since the 1970s (for all I know such concepts will be ongoing).
Along the way, these principles dealt with the metallurgy issues that are mentioned in other posts.

So, a Brit bike and an Indian manufactured bike with a Brit badge.
That's a nice mix.

[QUOTE=Jake;493947]
Anyway give me a bike designed and built in a European factory
[/QUOTE
These days, it is very difficult to achieve this; probably impossible. My 1990s TTR600 was badged as a Yamaha and assembled in Italy (the "Belgado" bike).

Triumph have a very large proportion of their manufacturing in Thailand.

On the car front, Toyota, Honda and Nissan, to name just 3 big Jap outfits, employ 1000s of UK workers and 1000s more across other countries.

Oh yes, the Chinese are coming; this was very noticeable at the NEC show last November.
I also noticed it during a visit to the French national air show in 1997.

The list is endless, and the reason is that business has no boundaries - it is totally international: where the profits go and the overall "morality" of this (the ethics) is a whole different ball game.

__________________
Dave

John 933 - The break through for Honda was the Dream bike.

My first road bike was a honda sl 125, the second a Honda Dream - (Not the super dream the one with the bubble tank).

Chocolate cams etc - i agree the Japs either fixed the faults or scrapped whole designs and runs of bikes and started again. Mr Honda was a brilliant engineer and designer - more so he knew when to admit he got it wrong and go back to the drawing board - something Europeans did not learn to do so well.

As people say the Japanese learnt to copy, then add quality and eventually design to an now excellent standard.

Just because they manufactured in large numbers back in the 70's / 80's did not make them good - they were simply affordable - European bikes were often more than double the price. (then again what were the japanese workers being paid ?.

The Japs got there in the end and now build excellent budget, mid range and top end machines - I still wouldn't not really chose one over a European made and designed bike. Simply i like to support western markets and also like the history behind the manufacturing of some of the old marques from Europe. (that apart from my views of putting money into eastern markets).


I would never try to compare the British bike industry to the Japanese as its already been said - that was largely a historic and failed industry.

At that time early 80's the Europeans - Laverda, Ducati etc were still way ahead of the game. I tried a Honda cx - got rid it was a pig and bought a Laverda alpina 500s as my every day bike, simply better in every way very reliable, easy, light fast and it handled. You just needed to look outside the box and the Magazines to find the bikes made in europe were light years ahead of the masses being chucked out of Japan at the time. even the likes of BMW's flat twins were better built, more reliable and many are still on the road unlike the rust buckets from japan from that era that are not around or stand in private restored collectors halls.

Eventually the Europeans also lost the way they tried to take on the jap's on price then struggled to maintain momentum, quality, race wins or anything else - The japs had come to stay and were winning.

Europe has fought back and is now back in the game with some excellent products and a different approach to quality the stuff people don't notice amongst the bling. That's where the Europeans are making a comeback. Excellent and top components along with quality and attention to small details.

Walkabout thanks for the link to the book - I will look it up and read it - loks interesting. Cheers Jake.

Farqhuar you said - Reverse is true for me. There have been massive improvements in technology over the last couple of decades - let's face it, most road bikes were dangerously unsafe when cornering until the mid-late eighties when radial tyres for bikes, and proper frames started being built.

Again you are looking at the Japanes market, European bikes did handle, brake and go fast doing it all very well.
I have to agree with OLD BMW that older bikes are for me better. Modern bikes by comparison are often lardy, carry to many gadgets and now with all the safety rules ABS, traction control etc added take away from the rider a massive amount of rider skill, input and feel for the machine.

Technology means the machines are becoming far more complex and rely on dealers to sort out even minor problems. They may be faster but its simply not needed - if the Machines were lighter and less powerful - just more usable. A ducati or Laverda road bike from the 70's put out 70 / 80hp and did 140 top end on a good day (120/130 in real rideability terms). Do we really need 150hp on an off road bike weighing more than a Laverda Jota. ?

Possibly even the "Belgarda" Dave?

Mezo.

That will do!
I think we sunk the other one back in 1982.

__________________
Dave

Mezo.

[QUOTE=Mezo;494090]

Mezo.[/QUOTE

An extract from the link below:

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.


People | Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit

but it is sunday morning!

__________________
Dave

Not here mate

Mezo.

OT (mostly)


An American called Demming from 1945. Came up with the notion that quality stems not from black art skills or inspection with an iron rod, but from making things easy to do. This was not acceptable to either European "craftsmen" who made money out of doing things the hard way or America bosses who made their money forcing others to do things the hard way and as quickly as possible. Demming went to work in Japan and by integrating production engineering from paper to product (another European problem where the designer ruled and mere foremen had to sort the rest*) made Japanese products what they were by 1975. Modern techniques just amplify the basics.


* I'm afraid one of the great engineering heroes gave us the worst example. One Dr. B.N. Wallis designed the Vickers Windsor bomber in 1943. Every component from wing root to tip was a different thickness to give optimum weight and you had to use a tuning fork to get the tension right. They built three then scrapped the whole project.


This is now such a well known system any company can adopt it, hence a Chinese bike company with the right managers could out produce Honda. Honda have the advantage of years of training but each year the advantage gets slimmer.


Andy

jake said - Give me a bike designed and built in a European factory any day
[/QUOTE Walkabout
These days, it is very difficult to achieve this; probably impossible. My 1990s TTR600 was badged as a Yamaha and assembled in Italy (the "Belgado" bike).


Try visiting the Moto guzzi factory in mandello de lario, Italy The factory dates back to the early days of Moto guzzi, the bikes are designed and built on the site, they have wind tunnel test centres, the museum and some of the old boys testing and building the bikes are almost as old as the history of the marque. I think the only major change is they stopped casting their wheels on site a few years back and moved the foundry to another place up the road. Built the way they used to be foibles and all. The factory dates from 1921 - they upadted it a bit - they put a new sign on the roof on 2007 and a new sign on the gates. !

Many of the KTM's are designed and built in Austria, as well as Ducati still alive and kicking in their old factory in Bologna. Italy.

A Lot of years back a few lads from the UK Laverda club went to the Laverda factory - on route one crashed and had to leave his bike in Northern Italy. On hearing this during the factory Visit -Massimo Laverda (co owner director) instructed a crew to go collect the bike - ordered it to be rebuilt and handed back to the lad - a gesture of generousity and loyalty all at no cost Its a personal thing owning an Italian bike You become part of the larger family. !

Doubt Mr Hondokawasamaha would do the same.

Jake.

Thanks Jake!
I had not fully appreciated the extent to which Moto G have stuck to producing their own parts, as you describe above.
Certainly, a visit to their production facility has to be on the bucket list.
(Damn, there's a title for a new thread!)

__________________
Dave

I love moto guzzi, one of my favourite makes of bikes in reality - you can feel the history in them, they still feel a bit hand made. problem is i have rarely owned or encountered a really reliable one until its gone through a number of changes and reworkings to fix all the little foibles.

I dont have one at the moment but have owned quite a few models over the years.

I know its sad and its no where near as good as many of the other bikes around but i still quite fancy a Moto guzzi tt650 - a simplified and lighter version of a bmw r65g/s weighing in at 165kg (30 kg lighter than a BMW r65gs), shaft drive, 48 hp ( compared to 27hp or 46hp for the bmw) plus the cylinders are more out of the way and with ooodles of low down torque, top speed 170km/h ( 105mph) compared to 90mph for the BMW, cruise all day at 80 mph and frugal on fuel. However they again are a guzzi so for serious off road travel would need a bit of reworking but for a bit of light touring like i now do maybe around Iceland or just pottering here and there just the job for an old gadgie like me. There is a 350 version available at the moment in a dealers but the 650,s are thin on the ground. Known problems are the rear suspension set up, the rear bevel drive and the small tank all can be changed to more usable options but really you should not have to.



Maybe with the success of the v7 range they will re introduce a tt from that range - not just a dressed up one to look like a scrambler version but something a little more focused. Then again we are talking Guzzi here and they rarely seem to follow the market needs as well as they could.

I think the guzzi V7 classic is the best looking bike being built today.. maybe one day i will own one.. but which to sell ??? It certainly ticks all my boxes..

.... and Triumph rebuilt Ted Simon's bike 3 times, IIRC.
Once at factory in UK before departure!
Again in India at Triumph dealer ...
and somewhere else I can't recall ... but pretty sure.

Ted also did a few rebuilds himself along the way.

Also ... the Japanese have done plenty ... they just don't like to blow their own horn regards their altruism.

You won't be disaponted. Piaggio seem to have kept the tooling but cleared out the fettling files and just-in-case **** under the assemblers benches that caused half the weird variation. Coming up on 6000 miles and not so much as the headlight adjusted. 300 mile range and tubeless tyres too.

The scrambler will be a dress up. The dealers are making them already.

Andy