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  #136  
Old 17 Jan 2016
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The Somerset Levels are a different issue to this year flooding, they are a natural wetland/marsh system artificially drained to allow grazing and in more recent times arable crop production. The first attempts to drain the area was possibly in Roman times

Here a cessation of dredging did have an impact with flooding, but naturally it is an area of wetlands/marshes/peat bogs were the changed use by mankind has altered the natural situation.
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  #137  
Old 17 Jan 2016
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Just one page of commentary and not an equation in sight

Canute – commended reading


Reading some of the other documents left lying in the late night detritus of the HUBB pub bar, among all the more usual Sunday MSM, I happened upon this more interesting discussion; the author rang a bell immediately with his description of the tale of King Canute.
Exactly the same storyline was fed to me as a child, especially the aspect that says he was the worst King ever and the evidence proffered of his antics on the beach.
As the article says, the Danish King Canute, who managed to rule most of England, was denigrated by his successors once he was safely dead and out of the way – that does sound much like modern methods of character assassination.


Quite a few centuries later a certain Will Shakespeare carried out a similar role on behalf of the Tudor dynasty in order to blacken the name of the Plantagenets, especially the last one who was also King of England for a while, Richard 3 (killed on the battlefield by those loyal to a certain Henry Tudor).


Modern Day Versions of King Canute Find It Difficult To Replace God.


Commended reading because there is a moral to the story, apart from the treachery of ancient Kingdoms.
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  #138  
Old 18 Jan 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
Broadly, that's a given.
It must be about 10 days ago that we touched on the subject of pollution and the need to deal with that; back in my days, a key topic used to be lead in paints and lead in fuels.
Lead is a naturally occuring element, by using your same logic for c02 it was a mistake to mitigate it
Quote:
I am a little bemused otherwise.
My last post drew attention to the small influence that CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have compared with those of H2O.
Along the way it is recognised science that CO2 is essential to plant life photosynthesis, as is the presence of water of course.
CO2 Science
. While Plants need CO2, too much is bad, as is too little. SO lets explore this, what happens if there is too much Co2? Well wallstreet would love it as it causes plants to grow bigger, they do however lose their nutritional value as they do so. Think of it like this, plants also need water, too little water a plant dies, too much it can also die, depending on the type of plant mind you. https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-plant-food.htm
Quote:
Some years ago the USA EPA was considering declaring water vapour to be a pollutant.
Endangerment and Cause or Contribute Findings for Greenhouse Gases under Section 202(a) of the Clean Air Act | Climate Change | US EPA
What became of that concept?
Where in that link?
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  #139  
Old 19 Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by Shrekonwheels View Post
Lead is a naturally occuring element, by using your same logic for c02 it was a mistake to mitigate it
?
I am not sure what logic you think I am applying to CO2.

Lead.
Yes, not the first time I have mentioned this because it was a major issue here in the UK (and elsewhere of course) quite a few years ago; children taking in lead from a polluted atmosphere was clearly attributable to lead additives in fuel.
As a child I owned many toy soldiers made of 100% lead (and some kids made their own by use of moulds and melting down the solid to a liquid) and I would suspect that I put them in my mouth now and again. Again, in school we all had a stash of mercury, obtained from the chemistry lessons – a matchbox full of the stuff would be in my pocket; it could be traded for other attractive items, such as Nazi regalia from the recently finished WW2 including bayonets, brass shell cases, gunpowder etc
Damn, what a dangerous world it was when the kids of my youth were conceived.


I also mentioned it because I have seen in the news here about the current issue there is ongoing in Flint, Michigan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrekonwheels View Post
While Plants need CO2, too much is bad, as is too little. SO lets explore this, what happens if there is too much Co2? Well wallstreet would love it as it causes plants to grow bigger, they do however lose their nutritional value as they do so. Think of it like this, plants also need water, too little water a plant dies, too much it can also die, depending on the type of plant mind you. https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-plant-food.htm
CO2 Science website and plant/sea life.
I find this aspect pretty interesting by which I mean that it catches my attention more readily than the mass hysteria of the climate alarmists and their whole show business.


The single page linked below, written in 1998, deals with the effects of CO2 enhancement on plant development and gives a good summary of other aspects, including the matter of water in the atmosphere that has now just started to be mentioned in this discourse.
They, the CO2 science research group, do appear to have a well developed and extensive research programme into plant and sea life research..
CO2 Science


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Originally Posted by Shrekonwheels View Post
Where in that link?
Ah, now there's the rub.
That is a hoax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarden View Post
Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness ::
You have proven that someone is reading this!
More detail about the hoax is here;
Water Vapor The Next Demon Gas | The Resilient Earth
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  #140  
Old 19 Jan 2016
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  #141  
Old 19 Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by TheWarden View Post
The Somerset Levels are a different issue to this year flooding, they are a natural wetland/marsh system artificially drained to allow grazing and in more recent times arable crop production. The first attempts to drain the area was possibly in Roman times

Here a cessation of dredging did have an impact with flooding, but naturally it is an area of wetlands/marshes/peat bogs were the changed use by mankind has altered the natural situation.
Somerset Levels:
The name says it really.


Agreed, the post-flooding event solution came, in part anyway, by dredging the rivers of that flooded area.

The locals had dredged the rivers for years under the auspicies of the local drainage boards, all disbanded in favour of a national body that knows best.

And, the flood effects were dealt with by means of pumping.
Once push came to the big shove, everyone had had their say and the media had waded up and down the drowned roads a few times, the Dutch hydraulic engineers were called in to assist in solving UK issues on the levels with the pumps.


Just as we now need French engineers to design our next nuclear power station, basically because it is so long since we last did anything of that nature that all the British expertise in nuclear technology has retired in the meantime.
C'est la vie.
Do what you are good at doing and buy in expertise for what you are not.


But, there again, the people of York have not heard the last of the failure of pumps on the rivers in that area last month.

Just can't get the staff nowadays!
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  #142  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Science Fiction or Science Fact



Settled Scientists in denial.


List of excuses for ‘The Pause’ in global warming | Watts Up With That?


Having settled on the hypothesis of settled science and now that the evidence is not stacking up to match the earlier prognoses we can find the book of excuses for why the ongoing measurements don't match the predictions; as per the link above.



This one is a classic from academia and ties in with my experiences of working alongside some of those who are engaged in "research":-
50) The observational data we have is inadequate, but we ignore uncertainty to publish anyway: [Carl Wunsch in an NYT Article]

“The central problem of climate science is to ask what you do and say when your data are, by almost any standard, inadequate? If I spend three years analyzing my data, and the only defensible inference is that “the data are inadequate to answer the question,” how do you publish? How do you get your grant renewed? A common answer is to distort the calculation of the uncertainty, or ignore it all together, and proclaim an exciting story that the New York Times will pick up…How many such stories have been withdrawn years later when enough adequate data became available?"
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  #143  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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If you like, you are welcome to come play in the piles of Arsenic in my home area. Despite our parents warnings the arsenic sand was soft and fun to play in.
I later worked in it doing both reclamation and just doing dirt work as the concentrations are very high in certain areas not being reclaimed.
This was in large a major reason why I got out of the dirt work in this area, not worth it. But hey, it is natural right?


Tree rings show global temperatures where a bit higher during roman times, scholars suggest this was do to a lack in volcanic activity,,, now we should be cooling more as we are slowly moving away from the sun.

On with our tale...
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  #144  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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anyone remember those kids at school who seemed to think the only way to win a debate was to shout louder than everyone else? seems we've got some in the pub atm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrekonwheels View Post
On with our tale...
Attachment 16946
Now there's something worth discussing- only a few weeks before the new season premier
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  #145  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrekonwheels View Post
If you like, you are welcome to come play in the piles of Arsenic in my home area. Despite our parents warnings the arsenic sand was soft and fun to play in.
I later worked in it doing both reclamation and just doing dirt work as the concentrations are very high in certain areas not being reclaimed.
This was in large a major reason why I got out of the dirt work in this area, not worth it. But hey, it is natural right?
Historically, we have had more than our share of heavy metal contamination in the UK, including that of lead, as I indicated earlier.
Now, all lead pipes have been removed from the water supply systems in the UK which is why the current events in Flint, Michigan caught my attention.
It is bemusing, to say the least, that in your country you still use pipes constructed of lead for the supply of water for human consumption.


My background is in the application of “settled science” knowledge, fully recognising that it is not the holy grail of, in this case, physics but it serves a function on a day to day basis.
I refer to Newtonian theory and its application to everyday engineering.


In my case, for a number of years, this engineering application was in the fields of water supply and the disposal of dirty water (what you guys sometimes refer to as grey water).
Consequently, BOD and COD calculations and similar maths based solutions to everyday problems were the bread and butter of my life, at that time – I have done other things also.


Like you I have learned a fair bit over many years about pollution, in my case from playing, as a kid, on bomb sites left from WW2 to being involved in designing and implementing engineered solutions.
Here in the UK, we have dealt with most of the issues of pollution; I am not saying that things are 100% hunky dory but we have made great strides in such things and I had a small part to play in that, over the past 40+ years.


It is because of this background that I can hold my current sceptical outlook toward some issues despite those who perpetrate the idea that their brand of “settled science” cannot be challenged – we have gone over that earlier in this thread and those who hold such views and belief systems will probably continue to do so; keep the faith no matter what, as the Jesuits were inclined toward (just as one example of the dogma approach).


I, on the other hand, continue to make a judgement on the basis of what occurs rather than what is said - “what is said” feeds into that of course and that is where the internet is a powerful tool for such personal research.


This continues to be a great thread exhibiting a wide range of information, views, facts, anecdotes and the like.
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  #146  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by TheWarden View Post
anyone remember those kids at school who seemed to think the only way to win a debate was to shout louder than everyone else? seems we've got some in the pub atm [

Now there's something worth discussing- only a few weeks before the new season premier
I watched the first couple of seasons and quit, did not seem to be going anyplace. Now it supposedly is interesting but the world is watching sooo I wont bother just because it no longer has just a cult following

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout View Post
Historically, we have had more than our share of heavy metal contamination in the UK, including that of lead, as I indicated earlier.
Now, all lead pipes have been removed from the water supply systems in the UK which is why the current events in Flint, Michigan caught my attention.
It is bemusing, to say the least, that in your country you still use pipes constructed of lead for the supply of water for human consumption.
If you are not very well informed on the global warming nonsense, why I am not surprised you do not know much about this either.
Your own country still has a lead pipe problem, which really is not surprising considering how old many buildings and infrastructure really is in the EU, it is not on a major extent but then again, governments love to save money and point fingers elsewhere, dont they?
http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/consumers/ad...flets/lead.pdf
in 20 years of digging up and replacing old water line I have never encountered anything but steel water lines, and even once wood water line, that sucker was old
We do not, nor have we in decades used lead pipes, believe it or not America actually has standards which ya'll end up basing much of your own environmental legislation off of.

Flint is classic of many American cities now, and yours to follow. As the global economy exports jobs and immediate pollution, which saves everyone money in one area, local governments run out of money as they lose their tax base and are now barely able to take care of potholes. Again, flints water problem its not indicative of all however we do need to address our problems, that means you as well, in order to advance as supposed intelligent human beings. I see little advancement where it matters.

Quote:
My background is in the application of “settled science” knowledge, fully recognising that it is not the holy grail of, in this case, physics but it serves a function on a day to day basis.
I refer to Newtonian theory and its application to everyday engineering.


In my case, for a number of years, this engineering application was in the fields of water supply and the disposal of dirty water (what you guys sometimes refer to as grey water).
Consequently, BOD and COD calculations and similar maths based solutions to everyday problems were the bread and butter of my life, at that time – I have done other things also.
so you were either a sanitarian or a sewer plant operator, nothing wrong with either as they are important jobs.
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  #147  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by mollydog View Post
Pure ignorance. You're living in a fool's paradise. Look at the science, do some reading ... and check out the history. Nothing to worry about?
What? Me Worry?

We knew this was coming back in 1977 when I landed in a Twin Otter on a Tabular ice berg the size of New Hampshire. (1/3 size of UK?) Also the year they discovered a hole in the Ozone among other things we did that year.

I supported Glaciologists (and many other scientists from many disciplines) in Antarctic from '76 to '79. They knew little back then ... but have learned a whole lot more since. The rapid changes that are now well documented are unprecedented ... and show things that normally would take thousands (or ten's of thousands) of years to occur are happening all the time.
And that's a fact.

I remember interviewing a 89 year old Fisherman in Peru' in 1975.
This back when the first "El Nino" was happening. This old guy said he'd never seen anything like it ... and nothing similar had happened during his or his Fathers' lifetime (Father lived into his 80's).

More recently in Peru', they've had massive Fish die offs no one can explain. Tens of millions of dead Fish. Explain please.

So nearly 200 years (a spec in geologic time) of personal experience from some modest fisherfolk of Peru'. What does it mean?
These guys spend their life at sea in small boats. The changes the old man saw he could not believe nor explain. He could only cry.

At the time I had no idea what climate change or global warming was, but we sure as Hell could see something was up and knew this old guy was not making any of this up.

Since then much has been uncovered, studied and proven. 90% of serious, credentialed scientists believe Climate Change is real ... and have PROOF. What's your proof? The Bible?

Are ALL these scientists being "paid off"? Are they Commie Rats? And why are the oil companies trying so hard (and spending millions) to shut them up! (but can't!)

It's real folks. Get used to it. This is not some Hippy conspiracy. But back to the question ... how will you get on your bike and ride once the world begins to fall into chaos? Govts. collapse, infrastructure fails and there is no one around to
"Fix things"?
Says you......coming from one of the world's biggest polluters....US dropping Eco bombs on other countries now are they. Wind your neck in and shove your guilt up yer jacksie. See you are still talking down to people...believe I called you out on that several years ago....nothing changes then.
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  #148  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Interesting, if its true, a big huge yay
The Good News on Global Warming: We've Delayed the Next Ice Age - Bloomberg Business
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  #149  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by Shrekonwheels View Post
I watched the first couple of seasons and quit, did not seem to be going anyplace. Now it supposedly is interesting but the world is watching sooo I wont bother just because it no longer has just a cult following
Now I could accept differing opinions on Climate Change and environmental issue, but after that you and me are going to fight ::


Quote:
so you were either a sanitarian or a sewer plant operator, nothing wrong with either as they are important jobs.
Both involve managing crap, something we've seen quite a bit of in this thread
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  #150  
Old 24 Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by TheWarden View Post
Now I could accept differing opinions on Climate Change and environmental issue, but after that you and me are going to fight ::
Both involve managing crap, something we've seen quite a bit of in this thread
Crap is right! Shrek gets his info from Koch bros paid "studies", studies designed to discredit real science. Hasn't fooled anyone paying attention, only right wing, pro corporate zealots.

I bet he's got Fox news on 24/7. You Brits/Aussies know Fox news, right? Rupert Murdoch owned/Roger Ailes managed? You must be so proud ... they've done such a nice job in the UK!
Their motto is "Fair and Balanced"!

Others are being tricked by little companies like Exon/Mobil, who are now being investigated by US Feds involving covering up facts they knew regards global warming going back to the 1970's. Gee, what a surprise.

It's clear (from their own employees and internal memos) they knew then what was happening (lots of documented studies) and saw clear patterns, had the data... and then set out to cover up facts, discredit legit science and use FEAR and bullshit to push forward their agenda. Have spent hundreds of millions to do this. Anyone surprised to see this?

I could post THOUSANDS of links refuting everything deniers posted here. All I would ask is read legit studies from established, accredited scientists, not crack pot right wing nut jobs we've got stinking up this thread.
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