Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Technical, Bike forums > Tech
Tech ALL bikes: "Generic" tech questions and answers. Maintenance, general discussions etc.
Photo by Hendi Kaf, in Cambodia

I haven't been everywhere...
but it's on my list!


Photo by Hendi Kaf,
in Cambodia



Like Tree21Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Belper, uk, EUROPE
Posts: 563
Aluminium “Welding” Rods

I have been getting occasional adverts for some “welding rods” that are used to weld aluminium and I was wondering if anyone had used them. They are marketed by a company called Millionus. They appear to be really easy to use so, as I have couple of pannier lids that I need to get welded up, I was wondering about getting some but if they are rubbish then I will get someone to weld them up for me. Yes, I am so sad that I have made my own panniers - it has been good fun actually.

https://www.millionus.co.uk/products...30961102159923

They seem too good to be true which makes me think that there is a catch somewhere - they aren’t very expensive and I guess they could be used to fill holes on crankcases. If no-one has used them I will get a set and do a review - maybe even do my own video.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oxford UK
Posts: 2,116
I'm sure there's some people on here who have a lot of welding experience and for whom these things are second nature. I'm not one of them, but I've done welding courses in the past and become passably familiar with arc, gas and tig (using someone else's decent equipment) and pretty good (for an amateur) with my own mig. I've even tig welded aluminium bike bits (with the instructor leaning over my shoulder!), but I can't do anything at all with those aluminium 'welding' rods.

I've tried several times to repair stuff with them without success and there's a few projects that could do with their help right now. I have a load of rods and other bits - including the instruction DVD - sitting in my tool chest waiting for the day when I figure out where I'm going wrong (probably via a good youtube video). I suspect my heat source isn't good enough but that costs money whereas the rods are cheap. The feeling I have is that the heat margin between success and disaster is too close for comfort.

Give it a go and video it - I'll watch it, but practice on something of no value first.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Belper, uk, EUROPE
Posts: 563
Does this mean that you have tried them but to little success? If that is the case And you think that it is the parent metal temperature that is critical then I can see a case for getting a cheapish laser thermometer - I am thinking of getting one for work anyway but this would clinch it.

I have every intention of getting good first before doing something that matters.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oxford UK
Posts: 2,116
Yes, I've tried a number of times to get the rods to 'weld' but not managed it. It's been a while now since I last tried it but from memory there's a number of reasons why that may be the case - I may have useless technique, I may not have cleaned everything sufficiently, I may have been getting / able to get the workpieces hot enough or the alloy I was trying to repair may not be suitable. Again from memory, the last thing I tried it on was some cracked Kawasaki alloy manifold clamps. I couldn't replace them (unobtainable) but I didn't want to ruin them either.

The rods are more like high temp soldering than true welding and it was getting them to melt and run into the alloy that was the issue. Like normal soldering you can't just blob the stuff on, it doesn't take. The alloy needs to be clean and hot - much hotter than normal soldering but I was worried I could overheat the whole thing and just end up with a puddle on the bench. Aluminium doesn't give you any warning - like glowing red etc, so you have to use other methods. I have an I.R. thermometer but I'm not sure it goes high enough (?).

It was on my list of things to revisit but, prior to your post, fairly well down it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 845
Ally welding is a pretty skilled process, as BoB says, you don't get any warning when it's going to melt, it just goes, so you need to know how much heat you're putting in or you'll either melt holes in it or just blob metal on top which will be useless. Another complicating factor is that aluminium oxidises very readily so if you don't weld it in an inert gas atmosphere (Argon is the usual gas shield) you stand a good chance of ending up with a spattered lump of alumina instead of a weld. Finally there's the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) that develops where the recrystallised grain structure meets the original grain and that's where it tends to break, adjacent to the weld rather than through it. I'm not a welding expert but I believe if you preheat the weld zone or post heat treat the entire component you can avoid a lot of the HAZ problems - but again it's a question of knowing how hot and how long.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Belper, uk, EUROPE
Posts: 563
The thermometer I have looked at goes up to 550C and the melting point of aluminium is around 660C but the rods talk about a temperature of less than 480C so there is a decent amount of wiggle room there. I suspect that it is a two person job - one to heat and monitor the temperature and the other poised to apply the rod. The thermometer is a laser infrared job so non-contact and instant - the trick I guess is to get the temperature just right across the workpiece.

Aluminium oxide starts to form quickly at around 450C so the final 30C gain needs to be done quickly. The other thing is making sure that the aluminium doesn’t anneal - in my application for my pannier lids this is not a big deal but other applications may not be so forgiving.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26 Apr 2020
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oxford UK
Posts: 2,116
That'll be a posh thermometer - mine only goes to 380C. You don't need to get the aluminium up to melting temperature for the rods to melt and flow. The instructions say there's a 200+C 'safety margin' between the temperature you need and the aluminium melting, the idea being that once you get the ally that hot the rod will flow onto it.

You can't melt the rod in the flame you're using as the heat source and 'flow' it onto lower temp ally - it won't do that, it just balls up or runs off. The problem is that in a hot flame that 200C margin can vanish in seconds and there's no way of telling how close you are. Maybe with a decent IR thermometer it'll work but last time I tried it I didn't have mine and it was all guesswork.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27 Apr 2020
Grant Johnson's Avatar
HU Founder
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 7,315
I saw this video some time ago, and thought he did a very good review:

__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.

------------------------
Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 27 Apr 2020
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oxford UK
Posts: 2,116
I'm going to have to have another go at this sometime soon. I checked my rod supply yesterday and there's half a dozen half used ones as well as a load of new ones, so enough to try again. I don't want my ineptitude to colour this conversation though so it would be great if somone who has managed to weld / braze / solder with them to chip in.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27 Apr 2020
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Belper, uk, EUROPE
Posts: 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Johnson View Post
I saw this video some time ago, and thought he did a very good review:

An interesting review. So it has its place - temperature control is clearly a key factor as is preparation.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 27 Apr 2020
Grant Johnson's Avatar
HU Founder
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 7,315
Agree, it's clearly not "easy" like grabbing an old arc welder and sticking a couple of pieces of steel together.
Perfect Prep has always been the biggie from my limited experience with aluminum welding.
__________________
Grant Johnson
Seek, and ye shall find.

------------------------
Inspiring, Informing and Connecting travellers since 1997!
www.HorizonsUnlimited.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 28 Apr 2020
Registered Users
New on the HUBB
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 4
"Alumafix" welding rods...

Technically, these rods do not "weld". A general definition of "Weld" is to melt two pieces being joined along with the deposition of welding material (ie the rod or wire) and the result being the two pieces fused together.

What you are showing us there is a form of "soldering", where the two work pieces are not melted or fused, the only thing that melts is the rod itself, that is melted and flowed and adhered into the joint.

So What? Will it hold? Yes.

Since the material in the rod has a lower melt temp than the two pieces of aluminum being joined, the "weld" material is obviously a different metal than aluminum. The weld metal would probably have a different coefficient of thermal expansion/contraction than the aluminum pieces, so repairing a crack in an aluminum head or block that sees high stress at a wide range of temps will probably crack and fail.

I initially bought a few rods of it to repair a punched-in oil-pan on a VW ALH Jetta. I got mine off e-bay for like $3. The 2.5cm triangle shaped chunk of oil pan was knocked out and missing. I fashioned a patch from 1/8" thick aluminum plate. Wire wheeled both pieces to a clean surface, not shiny. Heated both pieces up with hand-held torch with MAPP gas, and wire wheeled again. Then held together in the press, using a big 3/4 drive socket on the inside perimeter of my repair area and a small socket on the outside in the middle of the patch. Not tons of pressure, just enough to hold it. Watching the videos, you can see that one of the things that happens is the heat applied by the torch is transferring away into the rest of the parts, so your torch has to be able to add heat faster than it transfers away. If clamping parts together, be aware of the heat transfer capacity of your clamp, a chunk of steel with lots of contact area will take away a lot of heat. In my case, the perimeter-edge of a socket is round-ish, and the actual contact area is quite small, so heat transfer is minimal. That was several years ago, and I still see that Jetta driving around, and the owner tells me the oil-pan is still holding. Fixing the oil pan was a waste though, replacement oil-pan from a self-serve wrecker is like $20.

The other thing I've repaired is a stainless steel ladle or dipper. It was a stainless steel cup with a handle-strap of stainless steel spot welded to the side. The spot welds had let go. Its a vintage useful/ornamental item that hangs on the woodstove that we use for ladling hot water out of the heater tank. I carefully ground the surfaces, held them together, and applied the alumafix solder, and its holding well.

So to repair the pannier lid, I say have at it. The danger is that the pannier lid is super-thin, and applying heat may distort it forever. The other possibility is that the lid is not actually aluminum, but some alloy that melts lower than you expect, in which case you will be warming up the pieces to apply the solder and your pannier lid blobs onto the floor.

As with any solder/braze process, surface-prep is key to success, clean, and microscopically rough so the material can adhere. As mentioned, your torch has to be able to add heat faster than heat transfers away. A standard hand-held propane torch may theoretically reach the melt-temp of the solder, but will lose the heat transfer race. You pretty much have to use the more expensive blended MAPP gas torch.

Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28 Apr 2020
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Johnson View Post
I saw this video some time ago, and thought he did a very good review
Yeah I think he covered the main points pretty well. It is soldering not welding, since there is no melting of the parent metal, and that makes it a process that needs to be a lot less closely controlled. As he found, it isn't as strong as the parent metal, it's only as strong as the solder itself, and is dependent on getting a really clean surface to bond to - but still, it's not a bad performance at all.

As he says, it's definitely not something to use on anything structural like a frame, but for some applications it *may* be a viable get-you-home. And for non critical items a good one for the more creative to have in their shed

As an aside, when I was racing years ago I had a Mk4 Seeley, and I got a spare tank made by the same guys down in Dartford who built the originals for Colin Seeley. They gas welded all their ally tanks, and the workmanship was superb. I never understood how they did it, given the propensity of aluminium to oxidise when heated in air, but I wonder now if they soldered it using the same sort of stuff as this. Whatever they did, it certainly worked and didn't suffer any distress despite 10 years racing including the Manx GP.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 29 Apr 2020
*Touring Ted*'s Avatar
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wirral, England.
Posts: 5,673
Interesting.

Grant's video pretty much shows it's pros and cons.

Great for DIY and i'm sure plenty good enough for panniers.


I think i'll stick to my TIG welder though.
__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 8 May 2020
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Belper, uk, EUROPE
Posts: 563
The rods have arrived and they seem pretty easy to use. Surface prep is important as has been rated by others - the kit I bought cam with a toothbrush sized stainless steel wire brush - the brush is very abrasive on aluminium.

Points to note so far:
The size holes you can fill is limited to about 8mm diameter in my very limited experience and as you move towards 8mm the thickness of the covering gets thinner so ends up more like a film towards the bigger holes so if pressure is involved for big holes forget it. I think I would braze a patch of aluminium over the hole if bigger than, say, 5-6mm.

If I was to be putting a patch over a large hole then I would prepare the surface around the hole and the the patch. Apply the rod to form a “puddle” around the hole and then do the same thing for the patch contact area. Finally heat the patch and hole area to get the puddles liquid so that the patch can be placed over the hole sealing it.

Ensuring the piece stays still during the cooling process is important as the filling metal stays liquid longer than I expected. My fault entirely.

For a butt joint it is better to have access to both sides of the joint to put a “weld” bead down both sides.

You can easily make smooth looking joints easily and they seem to be relatively strong - it is NOT welding so it is weaker but it could be a simple remedy to carry out a bodge repair until such time as a proper repair can be done.

The rods are lightweight and don’t take up much space so I can see myself taking some on a trip - the heat source can be from a plumbers torch so should be simple to obtain locally.

I still plan on doing a video but that will have to wait for a quiet day at work and some time to prepare samples.
Reply With Quote
Reply


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/tech/aluminium-welding-rods-100868
Posted By For Type Date
Help! Crankcase breakage. - Page 2 - revtothelimit This thread Refback 9 May 2020 18:50

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crash Protection for Aluminium Panniers? Mattbibby Tech 2 10 Dec 2016 20:35
Auxilliary fuel tanks - steel or aluminium Tim_A Heavy Overland Vehicle Tech 6 15 Apr 2016 13:00
Handguards with or without aluminium bar? benniontour Equipping the Bike - what's the best gear? 22 30 Mar 2014 00:07
Aluminium protection from salt. g6snl The HUBB PUB 6 3 Dec 2013 02:03
Aluminium Luggage boxes inc fitting kit. FOR SALE / U.K *Touring Ted* TRAVEL Equipment for Sale / Wanted 6 31 Dec 2012 11:08

 
 

Announcements

Thinking about traveling? Not sure about the whole thing? Watch the HU Achievable Dream Video Trailers and then get ALL the information you need to get inspired and learn how to travel anywhere in the world!

Have YOU ever wondered who has ridden around the world? We did too - and now here's the list of Circumnavigators!
Check it out now
, and add your information if we didn't find you.

Next HU Eventscalendar

25 years of HU Events
Be sure to join us for this huge milestone!

ALL Dates subject to change.

2025 Confirmed Events:

Virginia: April 24-27 2025
Queensland is back! May 2-4 2025
Germany Summer: May 29-June 1 2025
CanWest: July 10-13 2025
Switzerland: Date TBC
Ecuador: Date TBC
Romania: Date TBC
Austria: Sept. 11-14
California: September 18-21
France: September 19-21 2025
Germany Autumn: Oct 30-Nov 2 2025

Add yourself to the Updates List for each event!

Questions about an event? Ask here

See all event details

 
World's most listened to Adventure Motorbike Show!
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...

Adventurous Bikers – We've got all your Hygiene & Protection needs SORTED! Powdered Hair & Body Wash, Moisturising Cream Insect Repellent, and Moisturising Cream Sunscreen SPF50. ESSENTIAL | CONVENIENT | FUNCTIONAL.

2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.

2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.

"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)



Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance.

Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.

Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.

Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!


 

What others say about HU...

"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia

"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK

"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia

"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada

"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa

"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia

"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany

Lots more comments here!



Five books by Graham Field!

Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook

"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.



Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!

New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:32.