From Paul's Blog:
Good and valid points all!

But ultimately it gets back to your earlier point:
To me, the above is KEY. Is your trip about "THE BIKE"? or is it about "The Trip ... that you happen to be doing on a bike"? :confused1: In years past we've seen riders set out on fully loaded, fully equipped BIG BIKES ... with a budget to match. Many still travel this way. But as Paul has pointed out ... lots of alternate approaches.

More and more we see younger (poorer) riders (and some older ones too) buying a small bike locally and setting out, improvising all the way. The world is big enough for both travel styles. Which is better depends on the rider and his point of view on travel.
Having a positive attitude makes all the difference.

Another good point was the bit about "What is an Adventure Bike" and "What is Adventure Travel". It's all up for interpretation innit? ... ADV Rider.com must have a hundred threads that have discussed this in great depth with hundreds of differing opinions. Too many really. The only one that really matters is your own. But ...DO put it to the test and get out there and DO IT!

Maintaining a good attitude is not always easy on the road. Group travel has iUPS and it's DOWNS too. The group dynamic separates you from locals and limits interaction but gives you support and camaraderie. Some prefer just hanging with mates vs. locals, who they can't communicate with anyway.

But dealing with the group dynamic can itself be challenging and exhausting ... unless you have a Fascist leader in charge so there is NO discussion or alternatives. (been there, done that!)

But even solo riders who speak the language get the travel blues. They tire of the road and their "attitude" can suffer. Riding alone too long can also make you crazy ... when you have long, extended conversations with yourself ... you may be getting there! (yes, this is autobiographical ) Also, see Nathan Millward. (Postie bike guy)
Being alone too much can breed anti-social, xenophobic behaviors.

Maintaining "Group happiness" is a huge challenge. Even with just one riding companion, not always perfect or easy.

What I figured out was that life on the road living off a motorcycle is not ideal for ALL humans all the time. Some, on the other hand, take to it perfectly and can literally live on the road .... Forever ...happy as clams.

Having UPS and DOWNS is normal. Try to maintain the UPS as much as possible. Follow a travel routine that maintains a good attitude, this can make for a happy trip for you and those around you.

That's the second link to the Horca site I've seen in the last 24hrs - not surprising as it seems to be well written with a lot of relevent stuff.

When it comes to the "bike traveller vs travelling biker" arguement I think it's more subtle than which side of the see-saw you're sitting on. Over the years I've travelled a lot by bike and a fair bit by car, van, public transport and on foot. Bike travel (for me anyway) isn't just one option among many, something I'll do when the budget is too tight to take the car or it's too far to walk, it's something that goes to the heart of my personality. I'm interested in the mechanisms of bike travel as well as the mechanics of the bike. I actively enjoy the interplay between riding the bike and the activity of travelling - even when I'm soaking wet or freezing cold, in a way that I get to a lesser degree when I'm in a car for example. The two come together to form something that's more than the sum of the individual parts. If you think that's a load of pretentious bollocks then might I suggest you might be more suited to a rucksack and the bus stop down the road.

It's because of that I'm not that bothered by the "adventure bike" industry that's sprung up over the last couple of decades. Yes I appreciate the wider range of bikes and bolt on bits that the upsurge has made available but for me the choice of bike has always come down to something that interests me, not something that ticks the perceived travel wisdom boxes. Money (within reason) has very little to do with this.

The eclectic collection of wrecks that have made up my biking history have come from somewhere else other than a desire to find the perfect travel / adventure bike. They've all been adventure bikes but the adventure has been inside my head. I want to ride a bike that interests me to on a journey that interests me and if the thing blows up a mile down the road, well, so be it. It even, at one point, included an MZ250 (and it might well again in the future) but never, ever a CZ. Even I have limits.

Re good attitude and "the blues", I've been there, suffered that, and right at this moment I'm acting as support back up to my daughter who's a couple of weeks into her first long (three months) solo trip. I can see the signs of hyperactive nervousness developing in her as I've been there myself in the past.

Years ago I was involved in a series of minibus trips, all of which had problems of one sort or another and it was interesting (afterwards anyway) to see that some people were devastated when were (inevitably) periodically stuck at the side of the road, they just went to pieces. Others just took it in their stride. People's core personalities come to the fore at times like that and you soon learn whether you want to travel with them again.
I have an intense dislike of the "my way or else" travel companion and will no longer go anywhere with someone who insists they're in charge (other than my dear wife of course!) even if they're otherwise perfectly pleasant. It's not because I want the dominant role myself but because I much prefer it to be a voyage of equals. Not some communist collective on the road but taking others preferences and wishes into account is important to maintaining "group happiness". Finding that some sort of factionalisation develops and it ends in a mutiny (been on a trip where that happened) doesn't make for a good atmosphere.

Excellent point! above and good post! I'm a motorcyclist at heart, have always done most of my own maintenance ... I too like the mechanical interplay. But my point (sort of, in a not very well presented way) was more about newer, younger and inexperienced riders coming from varied backgrounds ... most who never rode bikes before. Plenty of these guys and gals out there NOW as "adventure biking" really spreads out.

Far as bikes goes, I do prefer something more basic and simple over complexity. Reliability is important ... but this must be proven to me empirically, not from experience of others. I did lots of non motorcycle travel too .... and like you, enjoy traveling on a bike BEST! I work hard to keep my bike in good running order, after all, on a bike you could say your life depends on it!

Nathan, not Simon. Simon was tragically killed in Mali in 2003.

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I've read about Simon, but I own Nate's book ... so should have known better as it's sat here in front of me.


Nate's famous Postie bike

"For me, ‘Light is Might’. And the lighter, the better."

I agree with him 100% on this.

"Until Yamaha give us a WR450R, I’m eyeing up the new CCM GP450. If the engine proves to be reliable, then for me we might be getting closer to the mythical perfect adventure bike."

The first company to make a 450 enduro with about 45 hp and a 7,500 km service interval (comparable to the 690) with good suspension is going to have my money.

I don't care if it has a fairing, I'd rather build my own. I don't care if its a Honda CRF, Yamaha WR, KTM. Just give me a reliable 450 thumper enduro with good suspension. The gap between DRZ 400 and KTM 690 is HUGE. Close to 40 hp. Why why why why hasn't any company filled this gap? For adventurers and weekend enduro riders alike, it would truly be an amazing bike. And please, try to keep it under 130 kilo

I met a australian guy in Laos last winter on a Royal Enfield. I didnt ask his age but he must have been around 55-60. He had a huge beard, a huge belly and a huge smile. He was absoulutely a happy go lucky type of person. He had shipped his bike from Darwin to Indonesia some place and had been riding through Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia and were then in Laos. He wore a leather coat - not designed for motorbiking at all, some pair of working gloves (not motorbike gloves) and half face helmet and a pair of jeans. And just a pair of light boots. On the back on his Royal Enfield he had a cheap looking duffel bag medium size strapped to the bike. That was all he brought for a 5-6 mounds tour around southeastasia. He hang up with my group of bikers for 3-4 days and he was truly and honestly the coolest bike I ever have met.

And the best item he had was a T-shirt with a huge print on the chest who said this:

"ADVENTURE BEFORE DEMENTIA"

Now this ozzi guy definetively had the right attitude. The best attitude I ever saw at least.....

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Very interesting discussion and makes you classify yourself, and decide in which box of riding you belong. It also gives you perspective on others as well, which clears up the different perspectives on the bikes people choose.

The travel thing has wore off so these days it is more about the bike, so now my trips look like endurance runs of 450+ km per day. It is about the ride, not so much the destination. For this reason, the bigger bikes are more my preference. I do my weekend and day trips on gravel as well, totally about the road. 3000 km for me is a 1 week trip. I don't like groups. I have no interest in group dynamics, the social aspects etc, and it is about riding most of the day, eat, sleep, reset. Alone is best. With another rider, 2 to 3 days is enough. Smokers want to stop every 30 minutes, and those with small bladders every hour. Some get tired of gravel. Some only want gravel. Sometimes I'm happy to ride tar, other times gravel. Sand I don't like. Why compromise my ride just to ride with others?


I despise places where plenty of bikes gather, including breakfast run venues, tourist locations and check list 'must do' rides. Some of the rides I hated the most are what others say is great riding. Look on internet for great rides, and to me they are awful. To me it is just regularly seeing other bikes, clouds of dust, and the usual BS conversations with group riders. I prefer to get away from that.

Naturally once you can put classify your riding style, you can choose your bike. Perhaps it is about the trip and destinations, and the bike is only a form of transport. Then if it is just a form of transport small and cheap is better. I want a bike that puts a grin on my face. Like something in orange I don't mind spending money on the bike. Money isn't a limiting factor for me. It just must be a ride I enjoy, preferably to a place without other bikes. For me, I like bikes and riding. I don't necessarily like the bike scene and don't associate with it. If I did I guess I would have a different view of the starbucks/group ride/breakfast run/MC scene.

Great story! Love it! Being happy out on the road is not always easy! Some of us bring our nightmares along in our panniers!

No question there is a gap in this segment. KTM seems to be doing the best at filling that gap. Husky and Husaberg were also doing a good job heading in that direction before their demise.

The Japanese companies have mostly been asleep the last 10 or 15 years.
Lots of reasons WHY ... but I predict a change is in the works ... from ALL of the big four.

KTM's 450EXC street legal race bike has great potential, IMO.
KTM also make a cool Dakar Rally version you can buy, not a good travel bike, and probably costs .. what? ... $25K to $30K?

I'd like to see KTM build a 450 version of the KTM 690. What do you think? More dual sport biased, real sub frame for luggage, reduced HP for long term reliability, longer maint. intervals. Will we see this? Dunno?

I've heard rumors KTM are working on a smaller twin ... something 650 to 800cc ADV twin, light weight, perhaps inspired by the 950 SE? Rumor!

For the time being I think the "ancient" DRZ400S is not a bad choice. Sure, it's down on power ... but how much do you need on a travel bike?

DRZ wet weight is around 300 lbs. (136 kgs.). Heavy but not outrageous for a 100% street legal 400cc dual sport. The DRZ offers a real subframe, bullet proof proven engine with 14 years of history among tens of thousands of examples worldwide, many still on the road/trail.

The KTM 690 is about 320 lbs. wet (145 kgs. wet) Fantastic for a 650 class bike!

But once you add lots of extras and luggage for travel to either bike, weight goes UP sharply. Not sure how you get round that in an elegant way?

You could take a 300cc Two Stroke Trials bike RTW (under 200 lbs) ... but once you load it up for travel ... it would get heavy quick and it's total character would change.

The other problem with loading up a very light weight race bike is that it changes it's character dynamic, which can affect handling.

The traveler has to sort of "re-design" his bike, adapt suspension and geometry to maintain proper handling whilst carrying luggage. Luggage must be arranged carefully to make it all work.

I would hope a bike built from the ground up to carry a luggage load would have an advantage? Hopefully CCM has thought about this with their new bike?

I like the idea of a 450 class bike in that not only will going off road on tougher tracts be more fun, but a 450 class bike forces us to pack lighter and smarter ... and just plain get along with LESS.
I'm thinking this could be a challenge to riders coming off a R12GS-A!

The "Biker" vs. "Traveler" discussion will never stop, and continue until the universe will end...

The right bike is the one which makes you happy, not the one which make the next person over happy.

Never forget that happiness cannot be bought, only satisfaction can, and they are not the same things.

This is a philosophical discussion, and in general does not have anything to do with physical things...

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I think it's BOTH ...
It's philosophical ... and physical. Check the title of the thread again ... then go back and read Paul's original essay.

Paul writes as much about "Which Bike" as he does about travel attitude and philosophy. So it's clearly BOTH ... and nothing is out of bounds, both are relevant ... but working out a proper "ratio" between attitude and the bike is tricky and very personal.

Your comments about "happiness" are entirely valid and important to be aware of too! I think a delicate balance much be maintained. (at least for me!) I devote a lot of energy and attention to my bike ... but it is not the center of the universe and does not dictate the parameters of a trip, but if my heart is not in the trip ... I can always fall back onto the bike for solace!

(yes, I'm crazy!)

1.) Something about creative young engineers getting told "the way we do things here" and getting frustrated and leaving.

2.) RallyRaid UK and Torque Racing have successfully built a 450 LC4 from a 690 motor. It has about 50 hp. I think Jenny Morgan will be racing one in Dakar in 2015 and they will have 2 more in the race I think. Jenny Morgan Rode the bike from the Uk to the Hellas Rally, did the rally and rode it back to the UK. They never changed the oil till the bike got back to the Torque racing shop. lc450 dakar. I have heard they will sell a kit to convert the 690 into a 450 for people who want a pullet proof 450 or those who want to make their 690 enduros/rally bikes legal for FIM Rallies. But this begs the question, if you have a 690, why reduce it to 450 if you are not saving weight?

3.) They are developing an 800 an 500 parallel twin. Come on KTM! Make a 500 twin ADV!!!! (Please keep it under 130 kilo!)

4.) How much HP is needed? 45hp is a good number.

I'd heard vague rumors about the 800 V-Twin, nothing on a 500 P-twin. I'd bet the 500 will be an Made In India Bajai motor, no?

I know Bajai have big plans for KTM. Will interesting to see how they handle it once they own a controlling share, if they don't already?

A super lightweight parallel twin would be cool. The Japanese have made one or two 300cc to 500cc twins over the last 50 years ... shame the CB500X from Honda weighs in at 430 lbs. with 4.5 gallon on board, makes 46 HP but does get 70 mpg.

2013 Honda CB500X specifications and pictures

I have high hopes for the KTM's (Bajai) 390. Only read a couple reviews in the Brit press ... they were not all that complimentary of the bike. Bike has lots of problems, hope KTM can sort it out ... and hope the engine is a good one as KTM have plans to make an ADV bike out of it, according to Pierier in an interview a couple years ago. (CEO) Maybe this is the "500 parallel twin" you're thinking of? Or is that a totally different motor?

isn't it that new SR400 close enough to fit the bill then?