Like shaft drive fantasies, you may want to consider leaving kick start and anti water cooled obsessions behind as well. Keep researching, see what you come up with.

Unless you go back to a 1980's XT500 or early XT600 or some early XL Hondas, I'm not sure many kick start dual sports are currently around past mid 90's or so. I'm sure they're a few ... but would those old nails be ideal travel bikes?

I grew up on kick start bikes, (from early 60's) also lived through decades of poor (British, Spanish and German) elec. systems and hundreds of dead batteries. I became an expert at bump starting big British twins at age 15! ... and kicking them just wore you out or broke your ankle.

Also rode crap air cooled bikes that burnt up or seized for no apparent reason. Those days are gone. (thank God!) Liquid cooling pretty much rules now with just a few notable exceptions among 1st world big cc bikes sold by the Big Four. (DR650 is one)

The DR650 is the easiest starting bike on the market. Barely touch the button and it's running! Excellent electrics too! thump thump thump!

And don't forget superior Japanese electrics in general. Unlike some "others" I could mention ... Japanese electrics work ... and keep working (think Denso). If you run the DR's battery dead (it will continue running ) it's not a problem to bump start ... if on pavement or hard dirt surface if you have good technique.

Take care your electrics and all will be well. Don't run too many accessories. But the charging system will restore a dead battery in 20 minutes riding providing battery is reasonably healthy and not sat round too long.

I too appreciate the air cooled aspect regards ADV travel bikes, but the DR650 is not typical. It uses the very sophisticated Suzuki SACS oil/air cooling system developed for the GSXR race bikes in the early 90's. Google it. The DR got it in
1997 with the "all new" DR650SE.

Regards liquid cooling:
I raced AMA Enduro for 8 years (liquid cooled 2 strokes). Had dozens of big crashes ... never busted a radiator, broke a hose or lost a water pump. ALL Japanese bikes of course. So, while it can happen, it's fairly RARE!

But it IS a factor ... what with hoses, water pump and such. All that said, I do like my DR's "oil/air cooled" system but would have no problem riding (and have ridden) a liquid cooled machine to ends of the earth.

The DR650 has an "oil cooler" radiator. Does an incredible job at oil cooling. DR650's never over heat ... as tested by me in 118F temps riding hard. Never a whimper.

So keep researching, see what you come up with. Most of the guys who've commented have owned many dual sport singles and most have traveled on them. Take the advice given seriously. They are the "real deal".

Good luck!

Thanks for your feedback Molly, but the Yamaha Xt 600 was made until 2004 and I can get a very recent Honda Xr650L. From my research it is relatively easy to retrofit a kickstart to both models, therefore you get a bike which is not ancient with a kickstart. Also you don't loose the ability to electric start, so you have the best of both worlds. It's very well saying you can bump start, but on sand in the desert I can't see this happening.

I completely hear what you say regarding unreliable air cooled engines, that's why I started looking at these two bikes which both have a proven history of making Africa trips. I do understand the Honda does run hot and wonder what it is like when pushed to the extreme? Do you think fitting an oil cooler would be enough to avert any fears? As for the Yamaha, don't know how hot this runs? I did hear it burns a lot of oil, but don't know how true that is?

Thanks prop for your suggestion of the TT600R Belgarda. What advantage do you think this bike has over the two models I am looking at? What made you go for this option? How hot does the bike run and how will it cope pushed to the limits in the desert heat?

Ive never owned a XR650L, so I have no grounds for comparison. That being said, I've owned Honda's and they're every bit as reliable as Yamaha.

Compared to the XT, the TT is more offroad oriented whereas the XT is more road oriented.

My impression is, that Yamaha spent abit more fitting quality parts to the TT.

For example the oil tank comes stock with a temp gauge and a sight glass which makes oil level checks a breeze. It has beefier 46 mm Paoili forks which in theory are more flex resistant. Rear shock is a high-quality Öhlins. A stark contrast compared to the mediocre XT suspension. The rear tire is 18 inch, which allows you to run the serious offroad tires such as Michelin Deserts or Dunlop 908 Rally Raids.

The Deltabox swingarm has grease nipples, so you don't have to pull the whole thing apart to grease it. Same thing with the rubber swingarm protector, its made so it can be replaced without removing the swingarm.

All throughout, the TT has nice small details like that.

Its also a surprisingly stable bike at speed.


Its one of the lightest 600cc thumpers of its era weighing 134 kgs dry. Besides its based on the proven XT600 engine, which was a important as reliability is high on my list.

Another thing was price...for my needs, this was the best buy at the price. Didn't need to go around spending money on proper suspension, etc. I wanted a bike which capabilites didn't limit my offroad adventures, yet was still civilised on the road.


That's difficult to tell. I haven't done any desert trips yet. Normal highway riding in the summer or heavy city riding sees temps rise to 120c which is perfectly fine. I did 900 km in one day, where the last 400 km was on the German Autobahn during a heatwave (38-39 c), where I pushed the bike hard, as I had a deadline. During that time, oil tank temp was a constant 130c. The bike burnt 350 ml of oil, but that was due to the high engine revs I kept for hours at a time. Probably blow-back, as the bike hasnt burnt a single drop since.

I heard from another Hubb member, who contacted Dave Lambeth on the oil cooler issue for desert riding. He said, that the XT would cope fine and no need for an oil cooler.

It needs this because the standard tank is designed for enduro = 10 litre capacity (and the bigger carb must have a worse fuel consumption but I con't recall what I managed to get out of mine).

Yes, then later, Yam fitted a lesser suspension on the TT600RE to pay for the electric starter.

I bought my 2001 model secondhand and it definitely didn't come with a temp gauge - maybe some earlier owner removed it.

I also seem to remember using a dip stick for the oil level in the dry sump tank - a typical Yam black plastic thingy but it was a few years, and a few bikes, ago.

__________________
Dave

just to recap regarding the question, if you could take either the Honda Xr650L or Yamaha Xt 600 what would be people choose and why?

Personally I'd take the Yamaha. Even though I've done many trips on my XR600 and therefore feel "connected to the XR-L the seat height makes it a non starter. That's because I've got short (29") legs and although you can do as Mollydog says and slide off to one side, balance on tiptoe, wear platform boots etc it does become mentally tiring on a long trip. I know the XT isn't that much lower but, as in other walks of life, those few extra inches can make all the difference.

If that's not an issue that affects you then it would depend on what turned up and what condition it was in as I'd be happy with either. These days both bikes are going to have had previous "careful' owners (probably a number of them) so condition will be everything. In the UK at least the XR-L is a bit of a rare beast so the Yamaha parts situation is likely to be better.

There's a bit on bike selection here from the book "Africa Overland". Both Yamaha and Honda are mentioned.

https://books.google.dk/books?id=iE6...africa&f=false

I can second that. My XT is great and touch wood is doing a good job dragging me round the Balkans fully loaded

IMG_2362 by Wayne 66, on Flickr

Wayne

__________________
The Balkans
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/poi_entity/8417

It's true, bump starting in sand is impossible. We rig a tow strap to do this, and even that is hard.

Good news if you can adapt a kick start. Consider costs for the job.

An Oil cooler is good for sure, if installed professionally should be reliable. Try to mount it somewhere out of harm's way.

I have Honda XR-L stories from the 90's and many Baja trips. During this time ... it seemed "everyone" owned an XR650L. If pushed hard they use oil (like most 650 singles run hard). The Honda does not like being even a little bit low on oil.
Keep it topped up and try to use QUALITY synthetic oil when possible.

Other issues were bent or broken sub frames. Many travelers re-enforce the subframe and re-do the battery box. Other than that, all good once you get it jetted right, which was tough for me. In the right hands with the right prep the XR-L can be a stellar travel bike.

backofbeyond thanks for the info on the Chris Scott site, I found it very useful.

Molly what do you mean "re-do the battery box" are you referring to structurally reinforcing this or relocating it elsewhere?

Both options have been done on the XR-L. A California company called Baja Designs used to produce (may still produce?) various things for the XR-L. One of the "kits" was a new, stronger battery box. But I also heard of owners re-locating the battery as well but never saw this in person. It would be a BIG JOB as so much of the key electronics are based around the current battery box location.

Best to simply reinforce it. Not a big deal. But the rear sub frame is more a concern if running panniers or a tail bag. Mine bent, but did not break and I carried at most a 15 lbs. bag on the rear rack. But DID ride in HORRENDOUS terrain at full speed. (I was much younger and braver then!)

Many other guys I rode with broke sub frames but not much else broke on the bike. A few did wear out top ends from running low on oil. That Honda radial valve head is NOT one of Honda's better designs. But with a cooler and good oil I'm betting it would hold up to tough use.

Thanks molly. It's a little concerning regarding the sub frames. How much bracing do you think is required to make it up to the job. I did see some no welding bolt on kit to reinforce it - anyone know if these are any good?

Where did you take your bike molly? Sounds like it did some serious adventure. What sort of mileage range did you get out of a tank if ridden hard offroad?

Me and my XR-L did limited "adventures". Only one 1500 mile Baja trip and several organized dual sport rides here in California and Nevada and some street riding and commuting.

I struggled with Carb jetting on my XR-L so fuel economy was never great, around 42 to 45 MPG (US gallon). This was my fault, not the Honda's.

The bike was VERY TALL for me as well. (38" seat height I believe) It was a pretty good road bike and one of the best of 650's off road if set up correctly. (mine was not)

Somehow I fell out of love with it ... sold it after just a year from new. I was still racing two strokes then ... so the XR-L felt heavy by comparison, and I fell down a lot riding it. I rarely fall, even on race bikes. So never did any extended travels on the bike beyond Baja and local riding, never "bonded" with the bike, but MANY DO ... and many get them going really well. Remember, my experience was back in 1993 or so.

Reinforcing sub frame is quite basic and most good welders/fabricators can do the job in a few hours work. Search for threads on ADV Rider on XRL 650 builds. Some have documented this.

.... is the way to go. Same rolling chasis as the xr600 with a more tractable engine and road going niceties.
Did nearly 5,000 in North America on one and perfect for the job. A friend did the same on a DR 650 and followed me with green eyes for hundreds of miles in the dirt.
The only problem is getting a decent one now.

....... 700 miles in one day was the longest days..... not a problem with a Corbin seat and big acerbis tank