Hmmm

Colove 800, twin cylindred, 105 HP, 21/18 wheels, 22 liter gas tank, 160 kilos dry weight. Too good to be true? Well its chinese….

https://www.motorradonline.de/enduro...-enduro-china/

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The specs seem crazy good!. And if it comes at chinese prices, then this should be a bargain. I mean, 100 HP twin at 160 kgs, 21" front wheel, Upside Down Forks... and even tubeless spoked wheels! And I get why you say - is it too good to be true?

China knows how to make quality though - when they want to. Hopefully this will be a bike with proper alloys and machining that doesn't ware out and fall to bits and pieces at twice the rate of European and Japanese bikes.

One problem with many Chinese engines continues to be that the alloys used are too pitted, and the machining too inaccurate, andhardness improper - all leading to excessive wear. Then there is of course rust, poor welds, poor quality control, etc.

The article connects the bike to Kymco. Kymco scooters for instance does the job properly, but don't typically last very long. Drain the oil from a Kymco scooter and you will be astonsihed of how much metal you will find in it.

Then again. India is now making some proper pieces of kit - cars and motorcycles alike. The time is long gone since the best they could put out were poor replicas of old western relics (Bullet, the Bajaj/Vespa, etc). The KTM 390 Adventure for instance is a really good bike, at really good value - made in India. Many will point to the Royal Enfield Himalayan. Tata motors now own Land Rover and Jaguar - and they have never been better. China is just as good - putting out great luxury EVs under Chinese brands - at great value. Many western and Japanese brands produce both cars and motorcycles in China, including Tesla. Further still, cell phones and other hight tech - all comes out of China, under both western and Chinese brands. So, one should not be surpriced if this bike is the real deal - and that you will be able to get one for close to nothing.

I feel that I want one allready.

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The Chinese still don't understand brand building. When the Chinese parts in your established brand bike go wrong they defend the brand with fixes which are real margin killers. They take things very seriously to avoid this. All Chinese brands so far work on the basis they'll just withdraw Wung-Hung-Lo and rebrand as Sunbeam, Vellocette, Royal Doulton or whatever they can buy/make up. Its why parts supply is such a nightmare. Their current disposable brand and bike model is fine for £2000 125'S but not a £5K plus purchase.

They'll work it out eventually.

They've certainly understood the buyers wishlist though.

Andy

I don't mean to be a dick, but I just completely disagree with what you wrote here.

The KTM 390 Adventure is a known lemon, few engines have had as many problems as the 390 platform built in India.

The Royal Enfield Himalayan is known for oil leaks, burning oil after just 20km/km. Wheel bearings usually needs to be replaced every 10k/km.

The quality of Land Rover and Jaguar has never been good, but it in 2021 Land Rover is actually the lest reliable car brand in the world. Jaguar is the 3rd worst.

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As for the Chinese bike. It will be a hard pass for for me, even tho is does have dreamy specs.

You atre not a dick. I have a 2004 Range Rover, and it has been a nightmare the ten years I have owned it. I've also had a series Land Rover that I just sold - not ecactly German engineering that either. Very simple, and very few things to go wrong, but it all does. It is said that Lucas Electrics has the devil inside - and it does. The new Land Rovers probably are not much better, but thery have never been as technically advanced or beautiful, and they are bulit just as well... to the extent that a british make can be built well. Any how - you don't get many cars more luxurious or technically advanced than this - and it is Tata Motors from India.

As for the KTM. Yes there have been lemons. I have one. The only thing I had have gone wrong was a screw coming lose that holds the hand protectors, and that was mounted at the dealers here in Norway. It is too early to say what the build quality is like, but much of its technology is more advanced than on my Yamaha Tenere 700. From the time I ordered the bike to I had it ready with all the mods, it took a little over a week. With the T7 it took months and months, with delays upon delays, and I had to return many times to get all the pieces. Getting a spot to get it serviced took ages as well. Getting replacement parts or new upgrades takes ages. Evrything with the KTM takes a fraction of the time. I have absolutely zero complaints with any part of the value chain or the quality of the KTM bike. If I had to be really picky it would be all the stikkers from all the quality controls - the bike is allmost wallpapered in the shit.

As for the Himalayan, I don't know. I register that it has a tremendous fan base. I register that it is a complete new redesign, from the bottom up (not another Bullet assembled in a different manner). It looks sweet, it performs decent - keeping the cost of the bike in mind. If we are to believe what the fan base says, they have ironed out all the eraly problems. They have a decent dealership network. It looks very promising if you ask me.

As for Chinese brands - have you looked at Hongqi? It is a luxury car brand that until recently was exclusively built for the Chinese elite party members. The latest desigtned by the same dude that designed the later Rolls Royce. I promise you, the Party Members don't take any crap from dealers, Chinese or not.

The Chinese now also sends people up into space - with stuff they designed and built themselves. There is only a handful of countries in the world that has achieved that. Ten years ago, they were more famous for simple firecrackers.

I have had plenty of Chinese high tech gizmos, including Huawei Phones, IBM Think Pads, TCL TVs, and more. They have all performed great, and any service or repairs has outdone what I have experienced from Japanese or Amercian equivalents. As for value - they beat every contender with ease.

Now, if you had asked me five years ago, I would be laughing at anyone who suggested I'd buy a chinese vehicle. Now I'm not so sure. I think that in just a couple of years, I think any reservations I have had in the past may very well be put to shame. Time will show.

That much said, I will not be the first guy to buy one of these bikes. I want to see how well others fare.

But no, you are not a dick. I have my reservations too. Also I ask if it is too good to be true. Before I would be certain - that is no longer the case. Now I put a real question mark behind it.

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My view is that the bikes starts to get OK.
At least some of them. The "premium" segment of Chinese bikes.
Many people that has bought them new and used them for a trip are happy
E.g ATK bikes from Colombia that has done SA round trip.

On the other hand. All info form Vietnam say that the Chinese Honda copies are a total NO. Just crap.

I there are things that I am more worried about than of the bikes performance as new.

What will happen after the first test ride and year?

Will the brand still exist ? They tend to change brand very often.
Can you get spare parts after 10 years ?
Will the dealer still exist next year? Or will the guy that sold the bike from a hole in the wall do something else?
What about maintainability ?
Can you repair and restore these bikes, Or are they designed to be used as long as they work, an than => garbage ?

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Royal Enfield has been in the business for more than 100 years.
They have a world wide dealer network.
And assembly plants in several countries.

If you want something extra, Hitchcooks motor will supply you with whatever you need.

Chinese brands has a long way to

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Maybe those brands that have a design and supply organisation in Europe. And production in China is a good compromise. That the Chinese not only use a badge. But that the European part has a large role in the process.
E.G Benelli

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Design, development and marketing activities are carried out at the Benelli QJ headquarters in Pesaro, Italy, in synergy with the parent company of Wenling China where motorcycles are produced.
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If the 160 kg is true....
I is really interesting

You are totally right about this. A chinese brand of motorbikes are named this in one market and almost everytime a completely different name in another market. For example the Zhongsen ADV250 is called CSC RX4 is USA, and god knows what in south America. Its just very odd and confusing and it doesnt make any sense at all…

But Im not - like you - sure that the chinese will get there in the end. Their hunger for short time $$$$$ is huge and they seem to totally lack a long time perspective of things…

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In the end everything will be fine. If its not fine its not the end....

The Chinese desire for money will lead them to build brands.

A coffee in a back street cafe costs £2. If you are thirsty it works. A Starbucks coffee at what (I never buy them) £5? has the same cost. What they save buying in bulk they spend on branding and advertising. The margin is higher.

Many years ago I was shown shock absorbers for a Porsche. Unbranded £35, Sachs box £95, Audi box £105, Porsche box £200. Three of these came from the same factory, the extra cash buys you warm feelings it will fit and work.

Totally agree that the short term part is a factor though. Western brands were not often built on quality though. Go back 150 years and while the likes of Gillette were built on blades fitting the razor (and they gave you a "free" razor then hammered you on blades, just like iPhone etc. ), the Fords of the world just under cut everyone and forced a service network to form as the only show in town . Once you are huge the brand exists and the Chinese can certainly do huge.

Andy

Chinese do understand that brand building is the key and an important value for their future markets. But the chinese entered the world markets with low-priced, mass-produced and copycat products. And right now they are deep as producers of western brands in the market everywhere and they learned how to fill market gaps with their own products. This they learned as producers for all major western brands who wanted and needed cheap productions to save money which they had to spent into marketing and brand building activities.

Thats why you see (and you buy since years!) more and more technical products from chinese brands like e.g. Lenovo and Huawei. Chinese developed products and fully comparable in the computer or smartphone market with brands like Samsung or Apple. Think about e.g. face recognition or 5G, both developed quite faster in China and used since years as a main tool in government surveillance.

In 2017 chinese goverment started the Chinese Brand Day. Which was part of the kick off to the new chinese era of globalisation. The chinese are aware of the value of a brand and that they have to build brands if they want to make their concept of The New Silk Road sucessful in the next 2 decades.

They have learned from the western industries which themselves needed decades of years to develop technics of marketing and brand building. But this knowledge is already there and accessible for the chinese - they only have to master the exercise of a strategy and a concept for entering each of the western markets. Which is and will be in the future still under support of the chinese goverment since President Jinping annouced the great vision of a future china as a world leading nation.

Let us in the western world be happy right now that the chinese act in terms of marketing and brandbuilding slowly and still unprofessional. As more the gap between western and chinese developed products will close as better and more professional international chinese brandbuilding will work as more problems will come up for western industries through this new and powerfull competitor in the world markets.

And in case of motorcycles the point is that chinese motorcycles still suffer by a lack of quality. But with cheap prices chinese motorcycles are attractive for beginners in low (125ccm) or for returnees in higher ccm (> 400ccm) and for people in general who are more price focused than brand or quality oriented and who have a smaller purse to spent money.

The chinese manufacture vehicles for most major brands. They produce components for all major brands. Their experience is long and extensive.

Some chinese manufacturers have been producing white label vehicles and other machinery, so that different market makers in the value chain can create their own brands. This is one reason you can find the same vehicle with different brands - sometimes identical, and sometimes with cosmetic differences. For small displacement vehicles, this practice is very extensive. It is not a unique practice for China - but they have become the biggest player in this domain.

Now, the Chenese manufacturers want to skip the middlemen and create brands of their own, or take the local brands they allready have world wide. At first, it was places like south east asia, africa and south america. Now they are aiming towards the higher end of the market where they can charge premiums.

The number one question to ask is wether they understand our markets well enough to deliver enticing value propositions over time. Also, is the Chinese market really that different or are we becoming vastly more assimilated every year? With China's enormous population with a vast number of affluent people wanting the same luxuries and passtimes as westerners, it shouldn't take long before parts of the Chinese markets have mote in common with ours than not. How far we have come along that trajectory, I don't know.

As for dealerships, I bet that allready major existing dealers in our market will be the ones to pick up the most promising brands - and those dealers will be arround for a long time.

In the EU there is legislature put in place for I believe 10 years parts availability. Also keeping in mind that the manufacturers are ofting making parts and vehicles for many other brands - the chances are that they will be arround for awhile as well. Some of these manufacturers allready have been arround for a while - far longer than let's say Tesla.

The experiences that many have had with Chinese brands being picked up and dropped by dealers, that parts availability is poor, might be in the past? I mean, if you look at the covid situation - parts availability from even Yamaha hasn't been all that great. And, the 100 year old Royal Enfield has struggled a lot with this. It is not a problem unique to the Chinese. They might be worse, I don't know, but it is not unique.

I think the number one hurdle the Chinese has to overcome is westerners trust issues when it comes to European, Japanese and American brands, vs Chinese. They need to convince enough to get the volumes needed to sustain the local dealers. They also need to produce decent enough quality in order to not taint the dealer's good will with their customers.

Personally I think that westerners confidence in Chinese brands has been growing at immence pace, with Lenovo and the likes paving the way. India's recognition feeds into Chinese recognition, and vice versa. So, Tata motors, Royal Enfield, etc - it helps putting chinese bikes on the map.

We will probably keep a close eye on how these bikes succeeds in other markets - i.e. in South America.

So, will Chinese bikes get a significant share in western markets? I believe they will at some point - maybe as soon as 5-10 years??? When they do, they will offer great value I am sure. But the time it will take before there is a good bike model on offer should take less time, including a decent dealership network. Problem is, you won't know it is any good before it has been arround for a while.

I could easily fork out a couple of grand for a fairly unknown moped, but I would be hesitant to fork out ten grand for a motorcycle - especially if I were to travel far and remote with it. So, no - there won't be a chinese bike for me in any forseable future - regardless of how good it looks on paper.

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Those of us with long memories might remember the same accusations being aimed at the Japanese when they first started selling bikes in the UK in the 60's. The products were mostly good (or at least better than the junk being churned out by the home grown companies), but the availability of spares was their Achilles heel. Hardly a week went by without the bike press spotlighting someone who'd been waiting six months for a set of points and swearing he'll never buy another Honda - "I could get everything off the shelf for a Triumph, wish I'd never sold it".

What the Japanese did though was come up with benchmark bikes that seemed so good you'd buy them anyway, spares or not. Stuff like the CB72/7 in the early 60's from Honda, the six speed 250 Suzuki in 66/7 ('a six speed gearbox!') and the H1 Kawasaki / CB750 in 69. I may be older, more cynical and less likely to throw money at a picture in a brochure these days but I don't see anything like that from the Chinese. Their bikes may not trouble your bank balance that much but they don't stir your soul either. And that makes you more aware of their other shortcomings - fly by night dealers, non existent parts, skimped on production standards etc. They may be improving but without something that blinds you to all that they're going to struggle. The element of 'desire' is important in the bike world - look at any Italian bike if you don't believe me.

I very much agree. Looking at all the Chinese bikes, I struggle to see any unique "character". Many are look alikes. But, if you get the same-ish for a lot less, but with some specs that are superior (i.e. a bike that looks like a mix of renown and sought after models from premium brands, but with 100 hp and 160kgs, and at a lower cost...).

It sounds like a business model that can succeed and also pave the way from becoming a premium brand with unique and enticing features that stir your heart... In ten years or so?

You mentioned Italian bikes. Isn't Benelli now owned by Chinese, the Qianjiang Motorcycle?

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there's a ride report on AVR a 390 duke in Colombia I was astonished on how many breakdowns this guy was having 15000 km and everything went wrong his Sprockets and chain never made 12000 km countershaft seal leaking
radiator fan went south even the temp switch failed and the list is too big to describe he was always broke down thank god its cheap to to wait for solutions the thing is the guy loved the bike

Maybe quality control differs depending on what market the unit made is meant for? Also, the final bit of the assembly happens at the dealers. Maybe also it was an early production number? I-e, there were numerous reports on early Royal Enfield Himalayans actually snapping in half. Quality is a continuous improvement, and it is my impression that both Indian KTMS and Royal Enfields has got this nailed now - atleast for the European markets.

We have a KTM 390 Adventure from 2020. It truely is mindblowingly good for its money. So far we have had one screw come loose on a hand guard (assembled at the dealers). We caught it in time. Some thread, and it was all sorted in less than 10 seconds. My only issue with that bike, from a quality point of view, was that it came covered in an extreme ammount of quality control stickers, chalk and permament marker. Compared to my Yamaha Tenere 700 Rally, I really have not found any significant differences in quality. I'm sure they are there, and that it will start to show in a few years time. But, conscidering that I could buy three of those KTMs for the price of the Yamaha (also friendly priced), the KYM would have delivered acceptable value even if I ended up having to scrap it at 50.000 kms - as long as I don't have sink a ton of work and money to keep it rolling for that time (so far so good).

The Chinese will learn the importance of quality quickly - once they start selling larger bikes (more ekspensive) to highly developed markets like the EU, Britain, US, Canada, Japan, Australia, etc.

I am confident that the chinese will be someone to contend with - I just don't know if it will take five or fifteen years.

It is mentioned here that Royal Enfield has been arround for a 100 years. Now, several Chinese brands and manufacturers that have surpassed RE in making quality has been arround for only 15 or so. Time might not be as an important indicator of future success as one might think. Tesla, although western, only took a few years to surpass every car manufacture in both company stock value and innovation. They offer superior tech, that they can manufacture at the fraction of the time, at lower costs than all other major brands. Their momentum is tremendous.

It is a bit depressing I must admit. I wish for the brands I have come to love since I was a child, to keep on succeeding, and to keep their national identity. I want BMW to stay German, KTM Austrian, and Honda Japanese. I also want the jobs to remain in the countries that are closest to mine politically and culturally - and preferably in the countries that the brands originated. It allways saddens me when a brand starts flagging out in order to cut costs, or because they were bought up.

Anyhow, we will all likely benefit from the increased competition - as long as it doesn't turn into a race to the bottom - by providing ever worse quality and reduced innovation, to save ever more costs.

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