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Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
America did us no favours in WWII, the assistance was dependent upon Britain relinquishing its empire, and America didn't even declare war on Germany, it was the other way round. FFS!
Ever heard of the USA's War Plan Red for a war with Britain and an invasion of Canada?
Maybe Britain shouldn't have stood up for the rest of Europe in 1939. Hitler didn't want war with the UK. If Lord Halifax (foreign secretary) had been made Prime Minister when Chamberlain resigned, instead of Churchill, we would have come to an understanding with Germany. Instead it cost us our empire, all our gold reserves and an awful lot more. Not to mention the loss of civilian and military life and loss of armed forces assets (ships, planes). What did Britain get out of it other than a gift of a Christmas tree on Trafalgar Square every year from Norway?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arma
Does anyone reasonably believe that Nazi Germany would have stopped the advance as soon as their boots touched a line which said "British Empire"? I'll concede that, had the Empire stayed out it would have maybe had a stay of execution for a few decades but war would have broken out again and the Nazis would have come out on top. The British would be worse off, instead of losing Empire or gold they'd have lost everything.
The only way to avoid loosing it by force would have been to become complicit in the crimes of the Nazi regime. In doing so we'd have lost something intangible but vastly more valuable than empire, gold or homeland.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
Well it's going off topic somewhat, but Britain was seen by Germany as a fellow aryan country, and one with a strong empire to back it up. Germany's eyes were always fastened on Lebensraum in the east, coupled with the Nazi hatred of communism. But I grant you that who knows what might have happened 20 years down the line. Despite the resources of the British Empire and its strong naval and air forces, it was ultimately Russia, not the Americans/Brits/Canadians, who defeated Germany on the ground—the western allies never faced more than one-third of the Wehrmacht.
Why did we get involved to support Poland? Why didn't we get involved to support Republican Spain when Germany and Italy were supporting Franco?
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So:-
I don't think that it is off topic, certainly not fully off topic.
Britain declared war on Germany in 1939 ostensibly to free Poland; Britain lost that declared war aim to the USSR.
Since then, research has shown that it was the then president of the USA who was fermenting the call to war in Europe for his own political aims. Germany was the chosen geo-political target, Italy was not specifically so and Franco's Spain got a bye.
In similar manner the public message of the American civil war was “to free the people from slavery”; in reality, the actual aim was to form an alliance of the individual States of that land under a single federal government via the imposition of a single currency, the latter being the single most significant factor in defining what a nation state is; a classic case of “ever closer union” by military means.
The same “ever closer union” aim is to be applied across Europe by means of economic conflict; in a word, homogeneous debt slavery.
The overall lesson is that populations should not conflate the public statements of their overlords (representative democracy, fascist or communist) with the real geo-political aims of their governments. In short, the publicly declared fine principles become marginal, at best, when it comes to real government decisions and actions and all politicians' promises have a “use before expiry date”.
Also, politicians will take stances within international affairs when they are struggling with their own domestic issues and their electorates (the USA is a current case in point that comes around every 4 years, Argentina is another); it is so much easier to pontificate to a crowd for which you have no actual responsibilities than to deal with those to whom you owe your position.
The USSR also won WW2 militarily, as Stalin reminded Churchill et al on various occasions.
Stalin was sufficiently ruthless that he sacrificed any number of his own people, that was necessary in his eyes, in order to achieve his aims; one estimate is 20 million.
As just one instance,.during the battle of Stalingrad some 10,0000 Soviet troops were shot by their own side to encourage the others to continue fighting.
The USSR also won the post-1945 cold war “peace” in terms of their political aims with their “land grab” of Eastern Europe (for 40+ years only) but it was clear that the soviets had little to offer to the subjugated populations; ironically, those East European nations found their own ways of throwing off the burden of communism, more or less led by the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 – that process was relatively peaceful in that no one declared yet another European “hot” war in order to liberate such nations. In other words, internal unrest was sufficient to bring these various disparate countries to find their own solutions to their conditions – and that process is ongoing and far from finished.
From Hungary or Austria, for instance, in the SE of Europe to, say, Norway in the North (yes, the latter is not in the EU but it is in the Shengen area) none of them needs a homogeneous Europe of “ever closer union” in order to satisfy their own populations.
Nor does the Ukraine, which is currently part of the intended empire building of the central European powers.
The EU/EC are not prepared to allow individual countries to evolve at their own pace; rather, in the Ukraine they interfered to bring down a legitimately elected government.
The people of the Netherlands recently held a referendum on a Ukrainian related issue and decided by 2/3 of the voters that they do not want this EU-sponsored deal with the Ukraine. It remains to be seen if their own government opts to ignore their electorate and support the proposals to bail out the bankrupt Ukraine.
References:
The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers/Paul Kennedy
Stalingrad/Beevor