Andy, given the number of dishwasher repair men, machine operators and others who claim the title of engineer I’d suggest being more specific. For example in my case I would say I was a graduate manufacturing engineer working in process improvement as a six sigma black belt.

For Walkabout, a different answer:

I worked in the automotive industry for 13 years up to five years ago. My take on this would ignore the usual biker fixation with specific technologies. A Toyota Landcruiser (water cooled) will statistically prove more reliable in a long range travel environment than any bike. Sensible comparison though is close to impossible as comparable numbers just don’t exist. I would start my efforts on this by looking at:
· Intended use. If you exceed the design specification things will start to fail at an increasing rate. From the consumers point of view it is difficult to spot bikes actually designed for this type of use. Small capacity MX type machines are designed to race, so short , high power runs followed by any required maintenance, not carrying a lot of kit for a long distance. Larger machines may have off road style but are honestly expected to be used on sunny weekends and the odd two week holiday. Old machines may have had an expected design life that is now over, or the designer may have been useless and spent a fortune providing 40 year life parts for a 7 year life design.

· Design aspects that potentially detract from our requirement (electronic security systems etc.) I would say should count against a product. We need a cooling system though.

· Stability of design. Engineers, regardless of robust processes and taking the first point into account cannot find every issue until the product is used. Any new bike will have some sort of issue and the customers will find it. How this is dealt with varies with company culture, size and processes.

· Age of design and materials. We no longer see the sorts of obvious leaps and bounds they had in mechanical and electrical products even 30 years ago. What is changing rapidly is manufacturing techniques and materials. New designs can be more ambitious and without failures in their intended use because a component that used to be injection moulded and at risk of melting is now sintered ceramic. Things like 3D printing are going to allow shapes of component that were production impossibilities on older designs. These will be more robust and have higher performance.

· Where the design spec is met by sealed for life items, removing maintenance access is perfectly logical. Where this is not met, good design should make maintenance easy. Only where there are process failures will a semi-sealed design fail and require access.

· Robust process. The Japanese are the worlds best manufacturers. They have had detailed, naturally stable processes for almost every aspect of production for 60 years. A boutique manufacturer using non-automotive suppliers in small numbers cannot have the sort of process that simply does not make mistakes at any significant level. The root cause of the Ural subframe failure will almost certainly be related to a small production workshop relying on worker skill and inspection. Ural cannot insist the welding is done on a computer controlled process with statistical controls in place, the numbers are too small. Other manufacturers have adopted the Japanese techniques and some adapted them to other cultures but less experience still has an effect.


I therefore see no real argument in favour of either cooling system. A well executed water cooling system is more efficient. The well executed requirement is more likely to be a modern but proven design by a Japanese manufacturer or large manufacturer using Japanese techniques. Where the well executed design, working to an overland specification does not exist, air cooling can be meet many aspects of the requirement albeit at lower performance.


Basically, let someone with more money than sense do the testing on something fairly modern from a large manufacturer with a good reputation and don’t worry about what’s inside. Know how to fix what can be fixed and have the right tools , it isn't rocket science regardless.

Andy

By your own admission, 13 years in the automotive industry could mean that sat behind a desk in Halfords.

Be more specific.... I'm just saying

Jokes aside, I am interested in your experience. I've read a lot of your posts and they make a lot of bloody sense. To me anyway.

__________________
Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

My cover is blown! Would anyone like to buy three hundred sets of 5 year old spark plugs in their original packaging?



And thank you for the kind words.

Andy

The trouble with production adventure bikes is they don't build them to go on adventures. The radiators are never protected properly ( neither are the oil filters/coolers ) Look at the radiator on a modern mx bike they never get damaged, I crashed, bashed, trashed my cr250 the radiator still looked brand new when the bike was ten years old.
The new Yam tenere 1200 has a plasticky engine guard thingy, they shaped it to go around the oil filter which is sat directly behind the front wheel forchrissakes!!
I've got a GS 1200 adv it's great for what I do but Bmw say don't fit an oil cooler guard cos it'll over heat the oil (I know everyone does) but by it's monicker it's an adventure bike so w.t.f don't they fit a bigger one with a guard on to start with.

My apologies to you all. I get fed up with the continuous waffle that the latest bike has to be the best bike. To that end I claimed that someone on this thread was telling porkies. It was more of a misdirection than a lie and for that I apologise.
I started in the motor trade, as a mechanic working on Toyotas, in 1970 and have moved on to do engineering work for the MoD and others. I'm 60 years old and I like to hear both sides of the arguement.
I'll leave air-cooled versus water cooled debate to the people that want to read this thread. However, may I point out that when the legislation changed, so that cars had to have catalytic converters on, it was a retrograde step. The 'lean burn' engine was being developed and this would have given far greater benefits, and more quickly, than the step to cats! It would have been infinitely more ecologically sound as well. Check out what cats are made of and how easy they are to recycle?
To this end I've chosen simple engineering, zero content of water cooling, ABS, and fuel injection. The bike I've chosen, to go around the World, is 9 years old (2003) with a much longer pedigree than anything built now. The reason why it isn't built now? Our Draconian emission regulations! The Suzuki DR650 is still sold in Canada and America yet hasn't been sold here since the later part of the 1990s. Our emission regs yet again.
I've owned 3 KTMs from new, a 950 Adventure (one of the best bike's I've ridden), an RC8 and a 990SMT. I own a Valkyrie, a Fazer 1000 (Yes, it's carbed), and a TTR250 as well as my ATW steed - a Yamaha XT600E.
I've done the Northern route through Mongolia on an air-cooled Ural 750 sidecar outfit and I never wanted more power or more complexity.
As I stated before, You make the decision based on your experience, or the experiences of your friends, and your understanding of where you're going to ride. Air-cooled or water cooled? Your choice, but I'd help anyone out, irrespective of what bike they ride, if they broke down near me.

A handsome apology, well delivered.

Yes, we can all become frustrated with waffle.
However, there is some very good input to the discussion herein, including the latest posts from Colebatch.
And ThreewheelBonnie always has some good insight into the motor industry in general and his experiences with manufacturing and materials technology.

For what it is worth, I have one of each in my garage, a/c and w/c, 1995 and 2010 respectively - just one case of how over 15 years the technology has moved along, no matter for what reasons (as are discussed herein).

__________________
Dave

Me too!

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Dave