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I'm curious what the On The Road price is ... in South Africa ... for a new
KTM 690 Enduro? Here, it's about $10,500 USD, add in tax, lic. dealer prep, close to $12,000 on the road. How does S. Africa compare? :confused1:
Sometimes in technical riding the smaller, lighter bike is easier to handle.
I can go faster on a technical trail on a 250 than a 450.
£8000 is about equal to $12,000 USD. Seems to me, you're starting about at the same price point with either bike. I know guys spend A LOT more than $2000 usd on "customizing" the 690. The rear sub frame kit is an interesting
problem ... since the stock 690 has no subframe.
No question the 690 is a great bike ... and better every year. I rode 1st year model and a 2013, which was better. Even if I could afford these bikes, I'm not sure I'd buy one for a travel bike.
I hope CCM does well with the bike. They are headed in the right direction
but need to, IMO, get costs in line.
KTM 690 Enduro R is R109 K from the dealers floor. That will be on the road costs including all taxes, plates etc. Just ride it home. Roughly £ 5500.
There are 2 Oryx versions. The Rally sport version includes fairing, ergonomics, suspension upgrades, and more power. It is £6500. The Rally replica Oryx version, which is with the Rally Raid option, rally fairing, 27 l tank, upgrade to 68 hp etc. modelled on the Dakar 450 version, is £8000. The upgrade is done here in SA.
Same cost as the CCM but one hell of a lot more bike. This includes all transport and import duties.
The CCM is also £8000 in UK. It would be far higher here after transport and import duties. Hard to estimate how much because you would have to deduct UK taxes, and SA import ones and shipping costs. But Im sure it is much higher as everything more expensive here if it is imported. I don't know why you yanks pay so much for a 690. Maybe the Austrians don't like you for always bombing people's countries . Or perhaps Obama is slapping on massive duties to pay for his bomb and spend campaigns lol!
Again, the 690 is far cheaper, even with the Oryx upgrade to full brown Rally Raid edition. It is a no brainer as to which would sell. CCM has somehow lost the plot, not in what they try to achieve, but the cost level at which they enter the market with a new product. And the bike still needs modification to come near what you get with the Oryx.
Chris, your really hitting at this bike again - really it is not needed, to be so negative about a fledgling project such as CCM, more so when your views may be quite influential within the HUBB network by way of your experience, background and travel history.
As you will know and I am sure there will be many people who look up to the like of yourself for advice and guidance from your wide experience which is fair enough, however if you have your facts wrong ( different to your personal views) that then would be very unfair to the likes of CCM looking at what they are trying to achieve and where they are at the moment.
Everybody is allowed their opinion. Yours counts for as much as mine = very little. I think you're over-egging it a bit implying I'm an opinion leader. Nobody gives a toss about what I think. The evidence is plain to see. I think oil head GSs are bag of sh!te and everybody rides one .
Which facts do I have wrong with regard to CCM?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
You have not ridden the bike but you have a mate that did not like it - well there are many that have ridden it and thought it excellent - two friends of mine who like yourself have done big trips - massive cross continent trips - on various bikes both say they would consider the bike very high on the list of bikes.
I have not yet ridden the bike for various reasons but still cannot see why your so negative I can only be positive about it in its concept.
The CCM is new and offers something that does not exist to this market - it also appears of high build quality - yes it need proven but so does everything new to the market. CCM have it appears learnt from the past and hopefully (given the chance) moved on into a new chapter with this bike.
Good luck to CCM. They definitely need to learn from their history of mistakes. I really can't see this market niche that will make them much money. Everybody else is building bigger/heavier/faster road oriented faux-adventure bikes and seem to be making big money. Maybe people want to pay £8k for a dirtbike. Just because I won't, makes no difference to anyone.
Dazzer, who rode the bike at Haggs Bank at the WIMA event (let's not discuss why he's at a women only bike event... ) didn't like it. His opinion also counts for the same as yours or mine.
You haven't ridden the bike, yet wear rose tinted glasses. Great. I haven't either, and my glasses are less rose tinted. I don't see it as a big deal either way.
I said I was going to test ride it at the weekend at Donington. You need to show your driver's licence. I've got to post my licence to the Derbyshire Constabulary this week to have speeding points added so won't be testing it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
Bye the way (as for drz's something many people often refer to) one of the riders i mention above also ownes a drz and does not rate it that highly, constantly goes on about - various aspects of the poor build quality, the know failings and unreliable side of the DRZ series history. Thats not to mention the amount of money spent to bring his particular bike up to a reasonable level - still not comparable to the CCM.
To add to that I did some work on the bike with him recently - and have to say i was shocked at the poor quality of simple things like the electrics and some of the chassis welding - I was surprised as this was on a very low mileage bike.
I bought my DRZ for £2000 including a big tank. The bike didn't need any sorting and is great for what it is and has had some great trips to Morocco and other European destinations. I haven't had any issues worth mentioning with the bike. A chap I rode with in Siberia last summer, rode a stock XR400 Honda (just a bigger tank) from the UK to Magadan and back(!) with no issues. It cost him £800. (not £8000!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
I currently ride a Cagiva elefant at the moment another bike you would not rate - based on what ? an italian bias a ducati bias -who knows - but the quality of the chassis and general engineering are simply years ahead of its time and even the wiring (now almost 20 years old and with a tiny amount of modifcation) on the Elefant are way ahead of the much more modern drz. (I agree the Elefant is a little more complex to work on the engine) but still easy enough. I think we will never agree on our views over this CCM or the Elefant or the BMW for that matter but hey ho. Why however go on about the CCM - when you have nothing good to say about the machine nor any experience of it.
Now you're in the land of fantasy Jake, claiming to know what I think of Cagiva Elefants I quite like them and have a soft spot for Italian vehicles.
Oh yeh, I now own an Aprillia. Actually it's a BMW X Challenge, but it's essentially an Italian Aprillia. The only thing German is the badge and the mapping of the EFI unit.
I did not say your facts were wrong but they are mainly historic and companies change and can evolve, and make good I don't think you are prepared to let that past rest and give them a chance - a new day dawning and all that.
Rose tinted specs - maybe but more like very bright psychedelic actually - but just want to see a British company making a bike do well more the point, your right about opinions - but your pretty well up on the list of people who people will listen to by virtue of your scribe work and experiences regarding travel - I am not.
I respect Dazzers opinion and he is a hell of a rider - it surprises me he does not rate the bike - but maybe its aimed more at novices like myself.
Elefants - you let me know once what a bad choice that would be - good luck with it - giving a bit of a feel that they were not a bike to head for - so again you really surprise me with the nice comment there - that really deserves a .
Then you tell me you have got an Italian bike - ye gads be careful - it could be a long slow slide down a slippy and ever steeper slope.
I know many cheap bikes go many places reliably - bike are not about the money to me if you can afford them and like them then that's the equation I apply.
I perfectly understand that a cheap bike is and can be a good thing in a far off place - that makes sense in many ways - but all bikes start off new and reasonably expensive at some point - like many things hand built and or quality can cost more. (note and / or) as the two do not always go together.
Finally you should not have been going so fast -bad lad and if you were your observation should have seen the one that caught you before he/she/machine whatever had a chance to do so - then you would have been riding within your observational limits. TUT TUT. Keep smiling Jake.
of course the CCM isn't a cheap bike, but the price is "only" £ 300 more than a KTM 690 Enduro R, which is stronger but "naked", that means you have to invest approx. £ 2000 more (with Rally Raid products, KTM-Basel offers an even more expensive but very good and proven kit) to get it ready for traveling. The CCM comes with an 18-litres-fuel-tank which is good enough for a range of about 400 km and a good windscreen so there is not much to do to before start a longer trip. Don't misunderstand me, I love the LC4 (i have one in my 690 Duke R) and the GP 450 still has to prove that the bike will make it but I think we should give it a chance. The market will answer our questions anayway. At least I really enjoyed my ride around Salter Fell and the Through of Bowland and offroad I conceived it more handy than a 690 Enduro, which i rided very often before. In my opinion there is a place for the CCM GP 450 Adventure, even in my plans as I am looking for a smaller playmate for my Tiger (and still thinking about KTM, but now also a little bit CCM)...
And I know that I could get a (used) lightweight bike for less money and build it up by myself, but out of the shop there is at the moment nothing comparable.
Mollydog I don't know the answers either but through my very rosey specs the world is very different place to that inhabited by the rest of you poor mortals
Dave knight and the BMW tie up / breakdown - who knows the full facts except Dave knight - but I would suspect if it was the bike it was the chassis that did not work fromwhat various reports say - but it could have been the rigid flexability shown by the BMW management that made it unworkable, I would expect the engine was reasonably fine for the job and Mr knight would be able to compensate for its shortcomings if any by his skill level.
The CCM engine is made in Tiawan not China - very different countries with different political and and economical bases.
CCM have made some changes to the running of 450 engine - ie ignition set up etc to change its character to suit this application.
Trying to compare a well built small manufacturer product with very high quality components and a mass produced tacked together budget bike will give massive price differences so comparing CCM to a Yamaha is not really fair the KTM is about the only comparable bike and really we should be looking at the 450 ktm for a more balanced comparison cost in the UK £7349 - its a pure off road bike thats barely road legal and no way would I want to cover 500 road miles on one - that is if I could bare the pain of the plank they call a seal or the ergonomics and vibration - so doubt it wold work too well in KTM 's favour. ( remember I really rate and like KTM bikes so no prejudice here).
I think most people are forgetting the CCM sits somewhere in the middle and it need to be judges against something similar - but what ? it has the ability to carry luggage and be ridden for mile upon mile of road and motorway at motorway speeds with plenty left over for safe overtakes etc - then it can play in the grass and the sand. It does both well but does not exceed at either. Almost everything else mentioned in these talks has a big compromise one side of that fence or the other.
__________________ "For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)
I was going to ask the same thing! Did he get it wrong about the Kymco produced, made in China motor? Or was CCM's very dismal history? Or was it the fact David Knight (World Enduro Champion) quit BMW and sacrificed millions to GET OFF the BMW ... with the same 450 motor is in the CCM? Or maybe his facts about the difference between an £8K CCM and a £2K DRZ400?
Don't worry Jake, if CCM has got the bike right, it won't go unnoticed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris
I bought my DRZ for £2000 including a big tank. The bike didn't need any sorting and is great for what it is and has had some great trips to Morocco and other European destinations. I haven't had any issues worth mentioning with the bike. A chap I rode with in Siberia last summer, rode a stock XR400 Honda (just a bigger tank) from the UK to Magadan and back(!) with no issues. It cost him £800. (not £8000!)
I attended the WIMA event and wrote an opinion elsewhere but because I questioned some of the design and power delivery, I'm hesitant to air my view. However....
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris
Everybody is allowed their opinion.
+1
Overall, I liked it but not enough to put a deposit on one (yet).
There were 23 riders & 4 bikes. To fit everyone into 7 hours & allowing for riding experience, change-over, etc we were restricted to 45 minutes.
I'm short so opted for a lowered version which has a modified frame as well as different forks.
On tarmac it was a hoot to ride but off road, I found the throttle too sensitive making it difficult to ride slowly. Later, I discovered I wasn't the only rider to complain about the snatchy throttle so it couldn't have been just my bike....
I also thought the suspension was rock hard. Someone pointed that the lowered version had almost no angle on the swing-arm.
I also dislike the location of the fuel cap. Fuel pumps are prone to drip & worse still, filling using a funnel by someone who doesn't care - I simply don't want petrol on my gear.
It would have been nice to discuss my views with CCM but there wasn't time for tinkering & we weren't at CCM's base in Bolton. It was just a matter of getting riders through the day.
I really appreciated the time and effort CCM made on a BH weekend & I will consider going to their base for a longer test ride. Just not yet.
Chris, your really hitting at this bike again - really it is not needed, to be so negative about a fledgling project such as CCM, more so when your views may be quite influential within the HUBB network by way of your experience, background and travel history.
As you will know and I am sure there will be many people who look up to the like of yourself for advice and guidance from your wide experience which is fair enough, however if you have your facts wrong ( different to your personal views) that then would be very unfair to the likes of CCM looking at what they are trying to achieve and where they are at the moment.
You have not ridden the bike but you have a mate that did not like it - well there are many that have ridden it and thought it excellent - two friends of mine who like yourself have done big trips - massive cross continent trips - on various bikes both say they would consider the bike very high on the list of bikes.
I have not yet ridden the bike for various reasons but still cannot see why your so negative I can only be positive about it in its concept.
The CCM is new and offers something that does not exist to this market - it also appears of high build quality - yes it need proven but so does everything new to the market. CCM have it appears learnt from the past and hopefully (given the chance) moved on into a new chapter with this bike.
Bye the way (as for drz's something many people often refer to) one of the riders i mention above also ownes a drz and does not rate it that highly, constantly goes on about - various aspects of the poor build quality, the know failings and unreliable side of the DRZ series history. Thats not to mention the amount of money spent to bring his particular bike up to a reasonable level - still not comparable to the CCM.
To add to that I did some work on the bike with him recently - and have to say i was shocked at the poor quality of simple things like the electrics and some of the chassis welding - I was surprised as this was on a very low mileage bike.
I currently ride a Cagiva elefant at the moment another bike you would not rate - based on what ? an italian bias a ducati bias -who knows - but the quality of the chassis and general engineering are simply years ahead of its time and even the wiring (now almost 20 years old and with a tiny amount of modifcation) on the Elefant are way ahead of the much more modern drz. (I agree the Elefant is a little more complex to work on the engine) but still easy enough. I think we will never agree on our views over this CCM or the Elefant or the BMW for that matter but hey ho. Why however go on about the CCM - when you have nothing good to say about the machine nor any experience of it.
Yep.
Thanks to folks who take the time to give useful information, And huge thanks to Minkyhead, ViennaWolfe, the guy at the Dakar, and others who actually ride the moto.
Early days, something could go wrong, but for now the GP450 looks good. That said, for me personally it will be unlikely but not out of the question that I would go for the GP450. I like what I currently ride, it suits the geography of my area.
But it looks like this CCM GP450 is a well done effort, as far as it has been shown thus far.
Hi all. Tried the GP450 at the factory on Tuesday. First of all what a lovely place, staff all friendly and helpful.
The bike.
It was just what I had expected and hoped it would be. It does instantly feel comfortable. Does zip along nicely and can accelerate/overtake easily. Does feel amazing going over mucky paths and I would guess due to the very low weight it would easily cope with much more than I managed to throw at it, feeling more confidence inspiring after two minutes than my F800 did after two years.
Most impressive was the build quality of the machine, incredible! I looked at the bikes on the prod line in various stages of completion and they looked like engineering works of art, very impressed.
The only question (not exactly a criticism) is the engine characteristics. Although it did everything from ticker to high revving overtakes it did feel slightly rough edged and racey. It didn't seem to feel happy at a constant throttle, it felt much better when accelerating or braking.
My reservations about it not being a big single were answered when I saw the bike. That BMW 450 engine it a miniature work of art and matches the rest of the bike perfectly.
So would I buy one... Yes, definitely. Just have to find the money as it's not cheap but neither is it overpriced for an off the shelf genuine adventure bike
No I have not test rode a new CCM, my nearest dealer is currently 86 Miles away! (i live in the midlands just off the M1) do the factory send out a mechanic everytime it needs a service etc like Mclaren do?
Obviously motorcycle dealers are rushing to stock these bikes.
When the oppurtunity arises I will happily test ride a CCM, hell if they want me to they can send me a bike and I will try it for a month and give an honest review.
One comment mentions that us Brits don't give companies a chance? How many chances does a company get before the wise buyer goes elsewhere?
I hope that CCM have turned things around and that local jobs are secured and that in 12-18 months time we are getting lots of owners reporting back on great reliability and continued customer service.
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94Likes
. Or perhaps Obama is slapping on massive duties to pay for his bomb and spend campaigns lol!
.
) didn't like it. His opinion also counts for the same as yours or mine. 
so won't be testing it 
I quite like them and have a soft spot for Italian vehicles. 
.
??
Elaine
Hybrid Mode
