Well, I hope I don't have to fear 30 some-odd bad parts, or I will be bear meat somewhere north of 60.
I do need to make it clear that my dealer service has been and still is exceptional, I have no problem with access and honest dialoge behind, or in front of the service counter. We may disagree on a diagnosis, but once the answer is in I end up riding away on a great working machine with zero out-of-pocket costs.
The whole discussion centres around why I need to be in front of the service desk in the first place. It seems to me that the BMW factory is content to shoot itself in the foot, year after year, when it comes to known faults that just shouldn't be.
It's somewhat sad really, especially after riding a K bike all over N.A. with zip for problems. If someone were to ask me today what I think of the R1200GS Adv.- today...I'd need a moment of pause to choose some careful words.

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Ride Safe...Stu

Respect Partick, it's the first fairly balanced post from you in BMW section for a long time. What got into you?

Never said Japanese QA is worse, it is just my own first hand experience with Suzuki bikes that says that they aren't nearly as perfect as you would expect them to be based on the gossip.

While my BMW has been bullet proof reliable over 70K of one and over 60K of my other bike so far, considering what abuse they get in the conditions we have here in Eastern Europe. Thus for me, as a happy modern BMW owner, it hurts a bit to hear all the bashing from someone who has not even owned one.


But if you wish to be unscientific, we all can speculate about QA, I'll list some of the things that can prove or disprove it:

Fact 1) BMW R1200GS is the most sold big trailie model in the world, ever.

- It could mean BMW has just too much work in their hands to produce them to fulfill the needs of customers in a que. They're in hurry producing them and faults can easily come.

- Big numbers mean bigger problems even on a small fault probability. None of the similar big trailies are produced in such big numbers, thus we hear considerably less about their problems than we do about a R1200GS.

- Any "massive-in-numbers" phenomena creates certain equally growing amount of anti-effect in society. Remember when Albert Enstein presented his Special Relativity theory - the more popular he got with it, the more guys there were to disprove his theory and hate him, till today, altough generally it was and is an accepted theory. Like the R1200GS as a phenomena: it's still the most sold big traile, but probably at the same time it has the biggest amount anti-GS bashing compared to any similar alternative bike. Like CNN or BBC, it's the bad news that makes the news - most of guys probably ride them problem-free around and we don't hear about it.

Fact 2) It represents one of the most rare combination of technologies on a big trailie - paralever shaft, telelever front, boxer engine, ABS etc etc.

- It's a black sheep among the cattle of whites, everyone can lay a trip on it.

- If the business is sucessful (which it is), means they know what they're doing and we can trust their experience providing innovative technologies to the consumer in a sufficently reliable form.

- Innovative technologies can create more QA problems, since they're the only ones testing them on the field.

- Innovative technologies can create inferiority complex- or jealousy phenomena in some other riders with "regular" technology bikes, thus many of them rather get negatively oriented about it, it increases the bashers league lines, we even hear more bad about them.

Happy travels, Margus

Margus, Mollydog. I thank you for your input and I must say that I see both sides of the fence. I have no doubt that the Japanese have cornered the market on improvements over a basic design, that's what put them on the map. I do know that their QA is second to none, just ask the big three in America.
I also agree that BMW has the market cornered on the 'Big Trailey' and have done more with the GS line than ... No, let me rephrase... They have done as much to the serious RTW style of riding as H.D. has done to convince Dentists and Lawyers that it's okay to be a bad boy on the weekend as long as they're on a Hog. Technological issues dismissed/ignored. Just do it, it's okay but remember to wear official H.D. stuff. Oy.
No one will convince me that BMW hasn't got the real deal here. If I was to go out tomorrow and pick a machine to go north of 60 on I would buy the same one-hands down, because I really like it. My beef is why my particular bike is a Friday bike. I have two buddies that bought 07 GS Adv's, same dealer and they've had zip, nada, zero probs. Me on the other hand slink away to a corner and suck my thumb... I guess I'm just bitchy about it and I hope BMW comes through with the right fix that shouldn't have been required in the first place. Thanks for letting me whine and I'm glad you guys are okay...

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Ride Safe...Stu

I run a couple of Africa Twins, now quite dated, but still "fit for purpose". I've been looking at what bikes are around to suit me if I changed bikes now: having read this debate about BMW and from reading over a period of time, I must say that if I were about to buy a new bike to fit my needs it would be the GS 1150. There's no getting away from it. I'd have one now: but while the ATs meet my needs I'll stick with them, notwithstanding fuel pump and regulator/rectifier problems which are well known but fixable. No-one thinks GSs are perfect either. I dont.

Reviewers (all of whom I treat with caution, however) over the years have described the GS 1150 as one of the greatest all rounders ever. Thats my kind of bike. So I look at these bikes and chat to owners. Yes, they have faults - as all bikes do. What has to be decided is -are the problems mentioned here only from a small batch of machines or are these problems typical?

Mollydog mentions sources about BMW/reliability which he cannot name - so that's not too useful. Anecdotal evidence which he offers instead is interesting, but ultimately unreliable, I'm afraid. He must also deal effectively with the allegation of being biased against BMW and not being objective. I can't know if this is true or not and have no opinion on this.

And the trouble with forums is that usually riders only post if there's a problem - not if things are OK, which can distort the overall picture. As Margus says -bad news is the first to be reported. And it's hard to get manufacturers to own up: Honda still asserts that there is no fuel pump problem on ATs, for example.

Stu,
You may have the Tuesday morning bike; they build them in the way described in "scene 1", every day of the week - it is nothing personal on the part of BMW but commercial "sense".
No doubt they are not the only ones who construct bikes using the cheapest labour that can be resourced
Most of the time it works out OK and the bikes perform to the satisfaction of the customer (it is a % game). In part this maybe because lots of these bikes are not actually doing what they were intended for; some are, some are not, but many of them are cruising the highways and byways of the UK and never see either dirt or high mileages - traded in every two years for that "warm and comfortable feeling" - nothing wrong with that, just my observation of a whole batch of guys I meet who ride BMWs.

For those bikes which don't shape up, the fall-back position is the good warranty service which keeps the customer happy overall and contributes to the reputation for reliability.

I was riding again all day yesterday to multiple destinations, meeting up with owners of 1200GSs, among many others, and that's the concensus that I detect in all of those I see on the roads of the UK - first question for discussion yesterday was "have you got the '04 model?"

Those with Jap and other bikes sit around, drink coffee, shoot the sh*t and enjoy the sunshine; Beemer owners talk about their bikes.

You might want to look at
UKGSer* ::::* For BMW GS Enthusiasts
This is a big discussion area in the UK for these bikes (but nothing yet about the F800GS!!).

Cheers,

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Dave

Hello Stu. I've been speed-reeding through this post (Margus and the Dog are getting old already ) so i'm not sure if this has been mentioned already. First off, if you are leaking oil through either the input or output seal, the evidence will show on the seam connecting the motor to the transmition on the right side. A slow leak will show as black grease along the seam, where a full-blown leak will show dirty oil leaking in this same spot. This leak can also be caused by a leaking clutch slave cylinder. This problem is very common with the '05 model. I've never heard of shafts breaking! Clutches slip due to contamination, but they also slip from the hand guard being knocked up or down slightly engaging the clutch. If you have no oil issues and a slipping clutch, check that first. I removed the ball from my clutch to prevent this from happening. Warping rotors has been plaguing the new GS since about '06, with some people getting up to three replacements! There has been lots of argument ranging from ABS problems to improper break-in procedure of the pads.
I own an '05 1200GS which had 40k kilometers. I bought it used with 31k on the odometer. I have already had all the aformentioned seals and the entire clutch assembly replaced under warranty. I have just arrived in Mexico and the seals are leaking again. I have 4 months warrenty left and i'm riding it like i stole it before it goes to BMW Mexico to get repaired. If it leaks again, i'll do the job myself next time. I also own an '89 R100GS, and although i like the ride of the new 1200, the old airhead is by far the more reliable and practical machine for travelling. If i ever buy another BMW, it will be an Airhead, it seems the new models have become a hit and miss shooting match and the game isn't fun anymore

Mr Ron,
I know every time you take your EWS key out you now wonder "Will it start ?"
Every time you stop you go look at the rear drive to see if oil is leaking out.

Get you airhead back. Use the money from selling the R1200GS to buy spare parts for your R100GS.

John

Thanks Guys, you make sense. Air head, oil head, that is the question...

I have invested more money than my wife would consider "practical" and you guys are saying "go back to an air head?" Where the hell has technology gone in the last decade?

Really, all I want is to go to the NWT... snap a mess of pics, grab a great story and ride home. Without being eaten by a bear. Do you not think that the 07 R1200 GS Adv.. can do that? Oh my.

I don't give a crap about some Turk smacking bearings. I bought a RTW machine at a premium price damn it. I should be at least able to ride it without a niggling doubt about clutches, shafts and seals. This is really starting to grind me. Maybe I should have bought a Ural.Or a Ford.

Sheesh.

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Ride Safe...Stu

That is the most sensible thing I have seen on this thread.

You can't really rely on Mollydogs assertions because he contradicts himself so much.. On the one hand complaining BMW owners change their bikes every three years to stay in warranty, yet... he also states he has had over 40 japanese bikes... I suspect if he had to live with them for a good while his opinions might change.

I am on my fourth road bike since 1961, the first three I loved and were all Meriden Triumphs. My current ride a 1985 BMW r80rt has never let me down, but I do not love it. Heavy, high centre of gravity, high seat height and worse, gearchange on the wrong side. My next bike will either be a Meriden Triumph, or Enfield. I can fix anything on these bikes.

the story was that Triumphs were eccentric and troublesome and you had to buy german or japanese if you wanted reliability. It seems to me that this was mostly the result of superior marketing and propaganda from japan in the richer markets. It suited dealers and mechanics that british bikes had a bad reputation, because it excused them the consequences of their own sloppy work.

Truth is any bike you buy, new or secondhad it is an unknown quantity. The more 'modern' and by that I mean more complicated the more opportunity there is for it to fail. They are not all the same despite the hype. Every bike is different.

Gents: I have come to the conclusion that anything that has two or more moving parts will crap out, eventually. Regardless of adverts one needs to take the whole package into consideration. I was bellyaching about things that should not happen with a premium machine ei:the R1200GS Adventure... When I look at the whole service issue, aside from lumpy front rotors, it all comes down to the original problem of a broken input shaft and some seal damage. Eventually the clutch bit the bullet because of a gear oil bath on a dry clutch. Not a winning combination. HOWEVER... BMW fixed the problem, including the lumpy rotors. Anyone can speculate on what would happen if... The long and the short is that I had a problem, right or wrong, and BMW warranty made it right. To me that's the cornerstone of product security. Not only that but I have new rotors and a machine that runs like a charm.
I live in the world of product technology and every once in a while you get a problem that is unexpected. If it is fixed with no questions then ce la vie. Go ride and smile. Jap, German, American or Brit. It doesn't matter, if the machine you ride is the one you like then it's the best in the world. I'm a happy camper. Bravo BMW.

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Ride Safe...Stu

Hear! Hear!

Bravo!

Oncore!

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R.n.B. Caves Beach, NSW.

Live life to the MAX!! "one knows that one can, if one wants too".