1Likes
|
|
22 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
No start 89 XT600 kick start only
Hello
previously had a no spark (thanks forum) and have progressed to a no start .
I have not had this bike running. Motor comes from a 89 kick stark. Motor has a newish piston and top end. (previous owner claims very low hours put on since rebuild}.
Bike was stripped down and combined with my old 85 xt600 to get one solid bike.
Ok I can't get it started and its a beast to kick over.
I have not done a compression test yet but based on the receipts, old piston and the kick start resistance I believe the compression should be good for it to start and break my leg.
I have spark
carb is getting fuel at least to float bowl
carb has been cleaned with new o rings and gaskets. A/F is at 2 turns out
kicked for awhile with choke out no throttle -nothing
air filter removed short spray starter fluid- nothing
kicked a bunch more- nothing
rolled down steep hill a bunch of times - one or twice it tried to turn over it seemed. lights brightened looked promising but nothing more. Got fed up and went home.
Plug was dry. (pulled before the hill jump)
Plug is new and gapped
I had the air filter out. (maybe too lean to start?)
no backfire no popping
no gas smell
kill switch on run
feels like its not getting fuel but I was hoping the stater fluid would of at least kick something over.
Advice please
Greg
|
24 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
try to put a squirt of gas directly into the cylinder through the spark plug hole. I always mix some 2 cycle oil(40:1 ratio) in this gas to give some lube to the cylinder. Maybe 1 teaspoon of gas/oil mix at a time. If the spark is right it should start a bit. That will tell you if it's carb or cylinder issue. Also turn the idle screw clockwise(raise idle) about a 1/3 to 1/2 turn. You can readjust later once bike is running.
For my bike starting I need to, keep the ignition off, full choke, no throttle , kick it over three or four times( not hard just steady to draw fuel). The return kicker to the top, turn ignition on and one almighty kick. If no start, return kick lever to top and repeat hard kick till it starts.I can never give it any throttle while starting.
|
25 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
Thanks for advice, but still nothing
What I have done is poured in a little gas straight to cylinder.
Have sprayed started into carb inlet
I have a spark tester hooked up for testing not for starting attempts. It shows spark, how much i'm not sure but its there and even on an easy kick.
I have never had this motor running as it is new to bike. I know it has a newish wiseco 4797m09700 piston in there. I don't know if this is making it so hard to kick as I don't remember my 85 xt this hard. I can just stand up on it.
I know i might not have the sequence right yet for the decompression release but this is nuts how hard it is to turn over.
I will pull carb again and give a look, it was thoroughly cleaned with new o rings and gasket.
I have gas in the float bowls.
will check float height again
I have another ignition coil I can try as well
When I take spark plug out after trying to start it has a faint gas smell
So many hours in her all ready
Greg
|
25 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
Put a couple good squirts of motor oil down the spark plug hole and kick it over slowly a couple times to make sure the cylinder walls are good and coated, then just squirt of gas, put plug back in, slowly push the kick lever down till it hits "the wall". push just hard enough till it passes that spot, get past it barely. Release the lever to allow it to return fully. Now kick it like your trying to shove the lever 2 feet into the ground. If no fire then you have something other than fuel issues. It may not completey start but it should fire and sputter for a bit. And remember, no throttle whatsoever when doing this. After this you may try repeating this whole setup only give it 1/16 of a turn of throttle, just to try.
I will never use starting fluid on gas motors !
I kind of suspect it is cdi . Try tapping it several times with a screwdriver handle.
|
26 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
I checked the ignition coil for power. Now i'm confused. Battery is at 11.7 volts. multimeter with black lead to batt neg, red lead to coil (orange) from CDI side I get no power.
Now with red lead to coil and black lead to batt POSITIVE i get 11.7 volts.
So i shut ignition off and I get 11.7volts as i am making a circuit?
So switch black lead to ignition coil (orange) CDI side, red lead to batt neg and -11.7volts.
Confused, shouldn't i get black lead to batt neg and red lead to coil for power? and wouldn't it be slightly less then just checking battery?
But I am getting spark
I have another cdi and coil. i'll swap each out on their own. Both were from my old running 85 xt but that was now about a dozen years ago.
Plug is new
gas is fresh
THANKS for the advice and help
|
26 Sep 2013
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,368
|
|
You can charge battery or buy a new if its not taking charge, 11,7 is to low.
|
26 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 4,343
|
|
Useful thread in here
Yes, your batt should be around 13+ Volts.
There's a useful flow chart for fault finding in this thread, at post number 8:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-battery-71772
Clean connectors in the loom, a good battery and the like are pre-requisites for fault finding.
__________________
Dave
|
26 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
Battery was around 12.5v when trying to start. When it was at 11.7v it was starting to wear down after starting.
Would the kick start model need a strong battery?
I was curious to having power at ignition coil with ignition off. I thought power traveled to CDI after ignition.
Want to make sure that isn't an issue.
Battery is currently on a charge.
|
27 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Middle USA
Posts: 349
|
|
Since you are dealing with an 80's bike with a CDI, Battery is is NOT used to power the CDI. It is powered by the stator. I really suspect your CDI module is dead. I had two of them bad, one in an 84 that has been sitting since early 90's and my 86 that ran poorly and started very hard a year ago. After sitting for a year, the CDI died. I used my multimeter and verify the OHM readings of the Stator, Trigger coils etc. I then put the multimeter on AC volts and using the schematic connected to each stator and trigger coil output. I removed the spark plug to make kicking easier then kicked while watching the volt meter. I got upswing on each so I figured the stator was outputting. I also checked the 84 and got almost identical OHM reading an same upswing on voltmeter. I then ordered replacement CDI module, plugged it in and fat blue spark appeared on plug. Runs perfectly and starts easily now.
I highly recommend you DO NOT buy a used CDI on Ebay. They are going to be bad or die shortly due to age.
Watch this space later today. I have a new programmable CDI to test. I am currently running a Hyperpak from New Zealand. No complaints except long delays in getting it. The New programable PCDI-XT from Zeeltronics.com will ship fast, you can set an RPM limit if desired, it comes preprogrammed for plug and play. You have the ability to set the advance curve anywhere you want, but stay close to the stock settings. An anti-kickback feature was included and is accomplished by setting a minimum RPM setting for starting. Default is 250 RPM. Below this, NO SPARK, no kickback. This is adjustable but 250 is a pretty good place to leave it from the makers testing on his own XT550. This replacement CDI is only for the earlier XT's that have the wires coming out of the CDI module. Newer TCI modules have built-in plugs and will not use this model. Current price without programmer or USB cable is 150 Euro's and comes from Slovenia. Borut ships quickly and by AIR.
Extra feature included but probably not needed for the XT is a shift light output that can drive a bulb or bright LED directly and an Electronic Tach drive, should drive a Vapor tach directly. I will be looking at that myself.
Steve
Last edited by steveloomis; 27 Sep 2013 at 16:34.
Reason: update
|
28 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
thanks for replies
Clymer states that the CDI can be tested by yamaha. Can someone confirm this please.
where i'm at
i have basicly the same readings from both coils, as long as I use the same plug boot.
Ignition coil
1985 primary .9 1989 .8 ohm Clymer spec: 0.27-0.33 ohm
1985 secondary 15.44 1989 18.1ohm Clymer spec: 3.44- 5.16 ohms
Source coil: 238 ohm Clymer spec: 160- 240 ohm
pick up coil: (measured 2 eyes together of connector with mouth on bottom) had 229 Ohms Clymer spec: 90-129 ohms
Measured eyes to mouth had 114 ohms
> confused on this as bike's wires were changed it seems from stator out with different colored wires. I originally thought I was safe with 114 when I measured eyes to mouth but seems I might of done it wrong.
Clymer spec: 90-129 ohms
If I connect multimeter to brown and red wires out of stator and kick bike over with meter on ac volts, I get 65 volts max.
I have a VERY weak spark. I have an auto test light hooked up and I have spark. How strong I can't tell but if I pull plug and ground to head their is no spark.
I get the same results with either CDI and ignition coil. switched up back and forth etc.
Kill switch is disconnected as is Neutral switch and kick stand is jumped.
|
28 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
Hello
I searched for spec on the CDI, came up with different test results.
If I follow this my results seem to be with in spec or very close to it.
Models with CDI
Ignition coil (Primairy winding resistance) ground - orange
0,8 ohm (90mH)
Ignition coil (Secondary) Orange - spark plug
17 kohm
Charge coil resistance (HV) Red - brown
200 ohm or 122ohm +/-10 ohm
batterie charging coil (LV) white - white 0,23-0,38 ohm
Pulser coil resistance green - white/red 90-130 ohm
green - white/green 90-130 ohm
white/red - white/green 180-260 ohm
|
28 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Middle USA
Posts: 349
|
|
You found out as I did that the Clymer manual is WRONG. The Yamaha factory manual is correct. The Clymer did not tell you which is the correct wires to measure. Your second post is correct. Basically you measure from the center tap of the coil to each end. Clymer has you measure across the whole secondary and is why the reading is too high, twice too high....
|
29 Sep 2013
|
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BOP , New Zealand
Posts: 185
|
|
I too have found the Clymer manuals to have the odd error in their specifications
Best stick to the factory Yamaha manual
Bob
__________________
Remember that Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups.
|
29 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 827
|
|
Yep, Factory service manual only for me. I won't even take a Clymer or Haynes if someone was giving it for free(I actually did this with my KLR, I gave the previous owner it back when I bought the bike)Ordered the factory one .
|
29 Sep 2013
|
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 149
|
|
What is very confusing is that I have compared 2 ignition coils and 2 CDI's and getting the same result.
Its my understanding that the ignition coil receives power via the stator to CDI to orange wire to Ignition coil.
Its gets the power then through movement at the pick up from running motor or kicking over?
The power coming from the brown and red wires (from stator) bringing AC current? The CDI either rectifies it or the ignition coil uses AC?
Trying to focus on the chain to spark.
Is it possible it has some cut off?
Seems straight forward just wondering if their was anything more i could do to isolate the ignition and rule out.
The 2nd CDI came from my old 85 XT600. It ran well last used.
Again: >kill switch has been disconnected at ignition coil
>neutral switch was taken out prior to me. Blue wire is just disconnected.
>kick stand switch disconnected and male and female bullet joined.
Thanks for the help guys!! this is becoming an obsession.
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Next HU Events
ALL Dates subject to change.
2025 Confirmed Events:
- Virginia: April 24-27 2025
- Queensland is back! May 2-4 2025
- Germany Summer: May 29-June 1 2025
- CanWest: July 10-13 2025
- Switzerland: Date TBC
- Ecuador: Date TBC
- Romania: Date TBC
- Austria: Sept. 11-14
- California: September 18-21
- France: September 19-21 2025
- Germany Autumn: Oct 30-Nov 2 2025
Add yourself to the Updates List for each event!
Questions about an event? Ask here
See all event details
Check the RAW segments; Grant, your HU host is on every month!
Episodes below to listen to while you, err, pretend to do something or other...
2020 Edition of Chris Scott's Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
"Ultimate global guide for red-blooded bikers planning overseas exploration. Covers choice & preparation of best bike, shipping overseas, baggage design, riding techniques, travel health, visas, documentation, safety and useful addresses." Recommended. (Grant)
Ripcord Rescue Travel Insurance™ combines into a single integrated program the best evacuation and rescue with the premier travel insurance coverages designed for adventurers.
Led by special operations veterans, Stanford Medicine affiliated physicians, paramedics and other travel experts, Ripcord is perfect for adventure seekers, climbers, skiers, sports enthusiasts, hunters, international travelers, humanitarian efforts, expeditions and more.
Ripcord travel protection is now available for ALL nationalities, and travel is covered on motorcycles of all sizes!
What others say about HU...
"This site is the BIBLE for international bike travelers." Greg, Australia
"Thank you! The web site, The travels, The insight, The inspiration, Everything, just thanks." Colin, UK
"My friend and I are planning a trip from Singapore to England... We found (the HU) site invaluable as an aid to planning and have based a lot of our purchases (bikes, riding gear, etc.) on what we have learned from this site." Phil, Australia
"I for one always had an adventurous spirit, but you and Susan lit the fire for my trip and I'll be forever grateful for what you two do to inspire others to just do it." Brent, USA
"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the (video) series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring!" Jennifer, Canada
"Your worldwide organisation and events are the Go To places to for all serious touring and aspiring touring bikers." Trevor, South Africa
"This is the answer to all my questions." Haydn, Australia
"Keep going the excellent work you are doing for Horizons Unlimited - I love it!" Thomas, Germany
Lots more comments here!
Diaries of a compulsive traveller
by Graham Field
Book, eBook, Audiobook
"A compelling, honest, inspiring and entertaining writing style with a built-in feel-good factor" Get them NOW from the authors' website and Amazon.com, Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk.
Back Road Map Books and Backroad GPS Maps for all of Canada - a must have!
New to Horizons Unlimited?
New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!
Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80G/S.
Read more about Grant & Susan's story
Membership - help keep us going!
Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events all over the world with the help of volunteers; we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.
You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, or ask questions on the HUBB. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.
|
|
|