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Greetings
Wolle

Caps,

My thoughts about the Ten on my blog may be of use to you...

[url=http://horcamoto.com/the-bike-2/]The Bike

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Blogging @ www.horcamoto.com

I travelled in Mongolia 2 up in a R100GS Paris Dakar BMW, which is much heavier than both these bikes, so I am sure that both of them will do the job without problem.

My experience is nil but i know my former boss is about 8 months into his RTW trip on the 660z (after selling his 650 dakar). We stayed in touch and he loves it and wouldn't be on anything else.

I think BMW is listening to the market. There is no large market for off road biased bikes. BMW in SA says more than 90% of GSes sold in South Africa never see dirt, even in a country where less than 15% of roads are paved an it's an off road paradise. I would assume in Europe and USA the proportion that ever see dirt is far smaller. The market is road biased. Even KTM has seen this, hence their move with the 1190, which is selling far better than the 990 ever did. Off road biased bikes like the 640 and subsequent 690 don't sell anywhere near as well. There is basically the small MX endure crowd that trailer and don't ride road, or the rest that ride to breakfast runs, commute, and very few ever see dirt.

The offroad biased bikes like the HP2, KTM SE, 640 etc disappear. They don't sell except to a very small dedicated following. Just like proper 4x4s are disappearing and being replaced by SUVs and soft roaders.

BMW don't see potential there. Frankly, if my job was developing bikes that sell, I wouldn't either. Who cares about a few people that want to ride dirt roads, bad roads in out of the way places. They don't buy new bikes.

Agreed, up to a point.
However, some players in BMW Motorrad UK say that the manufacturer is aiming to produce a smaller engined bike; this is a constant rumour for introduction "later".
Just as there is plenty of talk about a new Africa Twin from H.

Lots of years ago, BMW vowed to introduce 2 new(ish) models of bikes per annum for the foreseeable future (or words to that effect) and that is exactly what they have done ever since the first 1200GS came on the market in 2004.
Some years it's scooters, some years other two wheelers, but always two per year.

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Dave

Many think the Tenere lacks grunt and is a bit heavy compared to the bimmer... both has aging engines, especially the Tenere. Some claim that the Sertao is not of the same quality as its predecessor the Dakar... if this is true or not, I don't know... I certainly hope the claim is false, because the Dakar has had its share of lemons. My opinion is that the Sertao has better capabilities both on the road and off the road, compared to the Tenere. What Tenere has in its favor is range, better looks, price and Japanese reliability... Tough choice. If the Dakar was still being produced, then I would choose the Dakar over the Tenere. But the claim of the Sertaos inferior quality to the Dakar would probably push me towards the Tenere instead of the Sertao. If the claim of inferior reliability is false, then Sertao!

I've got a friend working as a mechanic at the BMW dealer who told me he would rather own a used Dakar than a new Tenere...

I've got a Tourateched Dakar myself and think it is a good capable bike, and decent allarround...My assessments of various bikes, onroad vs offroad capabilities:

Sertao/Dakar/Tenere 60/40 Onroad/Offroad
KTM 690 40/60 Onroad/Offroad
F800GS 70/30 Onroad/Offroad
WR250R 30/70 Onraod/Offroad

Neither the Sertao or the Tenere are at the top of my list should I be buying a new bike in that category, simply because they are too heavy and too much of a compromize. The KTM is much lighter.

Most riders ride more of one or the other (offroad vs onroad), and I would therefore move more in one direction or the other and live with its lack in one department. A F800GS will be a far better bike on good surfaces, and will still be able to take you offroad on occasion (with more "planning ahead" as you ride, more muscling, and more care) Should I on the other hand be riding a great deal of difficult surfaces I would go for a Yamaha wr250r... and If i simply couldn't make up my mind, I would go for a KTM 690

Thing is, an offroad oriented bike will do quite ok onroad, but on onraod oriented bike will be gruelling offroad... you will try to aovoid it. Even with a Dakar/Sertao/Tenere, on uneven gravel roads and a bit of luggage you will wish you rode the Yamaha wr250r...

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You make a few salient points but, IMO, are missing a few things along the way.

1. In the USA at least, more than 10% of GS riders go off road. Granted, not serious off road, but they do go off road. I'd estimate 20% to 30% easy and growing. Why?

Big bike training camps, organized "big bike" off road tours, riding groups and on and on. All quite popular here and growing. Both KTM and BMW are pushing the training and supporting these events via contractors, bringing in new riders all the time. Sales are very strong for both brands.

2. But you are correct in that BMW are going away from Off road in general ... at least seems to be the corporate stance from Berlin. They're going in a more "Green" direction. BMW's new scooters are doing poorly as is their electric bike. But they will continue to push both scooters and elec bikes.
They've dropped out of Dakar and no longer RACE anything, anywhere.
(WSB, IOM teams are ALL privateer/dealer backed ... not BMW Gmbh)

I predicted a big fail on the Scooters over a year ago. Why? Few will pay $10K usd for the Blue Rondel when they can get a Kymco or other scooter for half the price. Big scooters are DEAD in the USA and not doing that well in EU either. Smaller scooters are cheap and expendable, easier to handle for new riders and women. So obvious.

3. It's true, KTM have introduced more street biased bikes but also still produce many street legal off road/race bikes. Not selling? Really? Come here and try to buy a 500exc KTM. You can't find one in a dealer, sold out. Been sold out for over a year at most dealers. You have to pre-order like the old days with Harley or Ducati. Even 690's are hard to come by. Pre-Order.

The KTM 450, 500, 690 all can be bought in road legal form. Look for KTM to introduce a smaller V-Twin Enduro bike (maybe based on the SE?) 650 to 800cc bike, I'd guess. KTM/Bajai also have the Made In India KTM 390. Selling very very well in EU. Check it out. It's coming to the USA ... I'm betting they sell a million of them.

4. I'm sorry to hear the off road segment (dual sport) is dead in South Africa.
In the USA the dual sport segment is UP! ... and has been UP for the last 5 years. Even made gains during economic crisis where no other segment did as well. Suzuki say the DR650 has NEVER sold better than it is selling now. It even sold during the crash ... when Suzuki nearly went out of business. Same with the KLR! With the DR650 & KLR, probably only 50% of riders ever go off road. But the DR, KLR, XR650L are good all round bikes, commuters, casual riding ... and of course GREAT RTW travel bikes. Cheap, practical, strong, reliable.

Hard to know what BMW will do in future. They've got the G650 and Sertao dual sports ... both quite heavy but, IMO, better than the previous Dakar bikes in terms of quality. The G650 and Sertao (both made in Loncin, China) are competitive price wise and really not bad bikes.

But sales numbers are probably not great so, you may be right, BMW may choose to NOT pursue this route and develop these bikes further. Who knows? Maybe they will drop both bikes sometime down the road?

ok, since I eliminated honda nc750x from my list I subscribe to this thread since I'm considering now exactly those two bikes - tenere and sertao

after seeing this thread:
Crash in Destruction Bay, YT - ADVrider

and this:

2011 bmw g 650 gs fork failure - ADVrider

no more bmw for me, they had problem with forks failure in 2008, didn't fix it,
again in 2011 - who knows if they fixed now. Scary stuff.

Just to put my penny's worth in support of the beemer option

I had a F650 Dakar which went to Mauritania and back without missing a beat along with 2 others both on Dakars, one had front brake caliper problem but apart from that their were no other issues.

I now have a g650 Sertao on which I've done 6000 miles in less than a year including 2500 miles around Europe down to Croatia and Italy in 2 two weeks including a 940 mile ride back in awful weather in 20 hours......again no problems at all.

Both have been off-road. On the Dakar, I did upgrade front and rear suspension for the trip and I would certainly consider upgrading the front springs on the Sertao if I planned doing alot of off-road, especially loaded up.

Having had both I can't say that the Sertao has a lesser built quality to the Dakar.

Unless you plan on doing alot of serious non tarmac stuff, not sure if you need the X challenge.........look at one of Walter's first trips to Siberia, a Dakar pretty much went everywhere he went.

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Kev

Actually the broken Showa forks happened LONG before 2008. The Berlin made F650's and Dakars had some failures, maybe 10 or 12 I've seen reported. There were always a few threads going in this on ADV Rider on this.

One guy in Germany actually got into court and got a settlement from BMW!
Not sure if anything was ever done in the USA.

IMO, those skinny Showa forks are under spec'd for a bike of that weight and power ... or perhaps BMW bought a BIG LOAD of left over Showa (Showa is owned by HONDA) forks at a good price? ... and have just kept using them? Maybe a bad batch of forks? Why BMW continue to use them is a mystery ...

Since I did see one link there from 2011 (Loncin, China made bike) then I guess those same crap forks are still being used. Dunno for fact, just assumtion. If true, this is very risky business for BMW as there is long documentation of problems going back over 10 years, both in USA and EU. If someone gets killed .. it could cost BMW big. $$$$$$$$$

But the real fact is ... it is a very very tiny percentage of bikes that have had this failure. And as has been stated by dozens of owners, many have used the bike LONG and HARD off road carrying BIG loads with NO ISSUES.

Could it fail? Maybe. Honestly, if I owned the bike and loved it and wanted to keep it ... I'd up grade the fork to at least 43mm. Maybe go with a nice KYB or WP. Both excellent and a bigger fork would help handling, stability ... better all round.

The F650's, Dakar's and Sertao's have issues but a snapped fork is not something I'd worry about. IMO, other more important things to deal with on those bikes. But once set up and fixes made, seems like a very good travel bike.

exactly what I think too, IMO this is too risky riding on them just hoping it was bad batch. Imagine going anywhere above 50km/h and your forks snap...
This is serious safety flaw. How come BMW after first such case years ago didn't do anything to change them all together?

BTW if this forks are made by Honda how come Honda doesn't have problems like this? Any forks failure on Honda bikes?