He said he wants to go to East-Europe, I reckon he'll turn off the main road to see at least the real face of that part of the world.

Go try to ride with a fully stock 2-up loaded sports-tourer some small trails in East-Europe, endless gravel in the Baltics, dirt in Romania and Bulgaria, everything combined in the Balkans, then come and tell me about not needing any modifications for a fully loaded bike

The bike will be riding like a weak-legged cow (especially the conventional forked front with soft stock springs) that bottoms out all the time and that simply explodes its plastic and radiators into 1000 bits once you go off into the rocks wanting to chase that nice remote area with nice scenery to camp with your wife or g/f.

But I guess it's pretty normal for West-Europeans to consider the word "Europe" a nice-smooth-road place where you only need a stocky (sport-) touring bike for the best ride, since less developed far East-Europe is already considered Asia for them

At least for me, that's the definition of East-Europe:

And we ride 2-up in the same mood, my wife was taking pic.

True, you CAN make East-Europe on more-or-less smooth tar as well, but you don't get even a glimpse of the real experience if you don't take the small secondary roads through the atmospheric countryside.

Margus

you've made quite a few mods to your GS, it's not exactly stock (including strengthened frame, headlights, exhaust, electrical work, radiator protection, etc).

you're making out your riding a showroom GS, whereas a showroom DL requires 'costly work'. bmw people who spend money modifying their bmw's are always very keen to prove their credentials with tales of fast off-road riding (two-up is an extra bonus). I think, on the Internet, you have to be careful with brand evangelists.

it's about 15 years since I was last over Romania/Bulgaria/Poland/etc. I think the routes down RIM/Mali are far worse. And there are more people than you might like to think about on road bikes down there. my own enfield was 2-up in Ghana for a while.

I accept that you do have to ride a bit more intelligently with stock bikes, you need to preserve their bits. Off-road you have to choose your lines more carefully than you would on a mod'd GS. But gravel ? give me a break...

I just don't think it's right to put the fear into people with talk of impending bike failure unless £££ is spent at TT. Credit the guy with some intelligence that he will assess the surface under his wheels and ride slower or turn back if it's too bad.

In fairness, Margus is riding RTW to some very gnarly places.

I've not ridden the DL, so I can't comment on the springs, but one thing that I would have been wary of, had I bought one, was the oil cooler: perfeclty placed to get a stone in the chops on a gravel road.

My take on it is this:
As far as protecting the bike, if either of these were to slip on gravel even at a standstill, I'd guess that, without the boxer engine to keep the bike off the ground, the DL could come off a lot worse, in terms of plastics etc, and plastics are the bane of a biker's bank account.

I have embarassingly dropped a number of bike at a standstill, GS included, and it was barely noticeably on the cylinder head. Where my numerous poor Hondas and a mint Kawasaki suffered for my clumsiness...

Applying the same logic, doing the trip on any of the road bikes that Ted mentioned is equally possibly, on that same understanding that they will probably suffer from any falls to a greater degree...

If Richard86 can live with that possibility, then fine.

I think brand orientated prejudice, for, but equally against, is no good thing.

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

You know, I was just thinking about this the other day. Where can one buy the old style full wrap around crash bars like we used to have on most bikes in the 70s. I had them on my little Chinese 125 two years ago and they cost me less than $5 - including fitting!



True, they don't look cool but they are absolutely necessary once you take a plastic faired road bike onto gravel

I'm determined to get a proper set to fit my my next offroader - in the meantime I may even dril a few holes in the bodywork of my Burgman to make some fit ready for my next ride up to Birdsville..

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

it's not the bmw/gs at all I object to. it's the idea that you somehow have to spend a lot of money to ride a bike in europe, including gravel roads.

if you are on a stock bike then you ride it like a stock bike. if you spend £3000 (on mod'ing a BMW or a Honda, etc) then you are paying to ride it, essentially, faster. 30 mph over the roughest stuff rather than 10 mph. pretty much anything with 2 wheels can be ridden/got-over the roughest stuff, it just comes down to how hard you want to push it.

there are people riding around on all sorts of bikes (2-up) all over the place. You can, but don't need to fully prep/upgrade. it just means that you ride accordingly. look at all the scooters riding around africa, 2-up, 3-up, etc. if you find yourself on a trip wishing you could do more/faster, then you change your bike for the next one (we're not talking RTW here). the OP is talking about gentle stuff, not RTW. and mainly roads.

I think it's just a different mindset. some people just want to get on two wheels and ride around any problem/weakness. others want total piece of mind and get annoyed if something breaks. if you know motogp, then Rossi is the former and Gibernau was the latter.

to say that a DL (I have one) needs lots of money spent, but a GS doesn't. Oh and here's a picture of my GS 'we ride in the same mood 2-up' (ie faster than stock). doesn't present a completely honest account given the context of this discussion. that GS, ridden in that 'mood' has been mod'd to allow him to ride 2-up in that 'mood'.

the completely stock 1150 GS I rode from Mali to London was fine (not my cuppa, and too expensive to fix though). it was ridden down there 2-up. But going back onto the DL, after 1 month on the GS, felt weird. The DL felt like it was very flimsy and about to break in half. but that's just relative to the weight/bulk of a GS. Many people take the DL650 because the 1000 is deemed too heavy, so what they'd make of a GS I don't know.

I understand why GS owners think Jap bikes are flimsy, even the big ones like DL or Varadero. But, in my experience, it says more about the GS than the DL. part of the appeal of the GS is its stability, and that's largely down to its weight. it is incredible difficult to upset its course once set, either by wind or road surface.

Plenty of Vstroms have been in knarly places. Some ride crazy places, especially the DL650. You need just a few cheap and simple mods.
I've never heard of a broken oil cooler on a Vstrom. Have you? Added a "Fenda' Extenda' thingy to keep mud off the rad and oil cooler, maybe that helped? It cost $10. No issues for me with rocks breaking anything. 70K miles. Also, the cooler has a screen over it. Still, it does LOOK vulnerable, I agree. But somehow no damage ever seems to happen, even riding 70 mph on dirt roads over thousands of miles. Go figure

Suspension is not bad stock (ride one and find out), does benefit from firming up, especially going two up RTW, off road. (I go mostly solo) Spent a whooping $80 on fork springs & $15 for heavier fork oil. I had the stock KYB shock revalved (Race Tech) for $150. Is this a lot of money? Shock never leaked, worked great! Most of the GS guys I know took off brand new WP shocks and bought $1400 (each) Ohlins, front and back. They are very nice, but I thought the R12GS rode great stock? Local BMW dealer had a sale of left over cast away parts. He had about 20 sets of stock GS WP shocks, selling very very cheap. Some showroom new. Guess what? No one bought them. But they sell lots of Ohlins stickers! Some Vstrom owners put on Wilbers, Elka, Ohlins or other aftermarket shock. The Wilbers perform good but some blew out the seals riding on wash board roads. This was known since 2003 or so.

The Vstrom rides lighter than a GS in the dirt. With right tires of course. It's pretty handy if you're careful! The 650 V is about 100 lbs. lighter than an 1150GS, about 40 lbs. lighter than a R1200GS. (wet weights)
Vstrom needs crash bars & hand guards. Still won't crash as nicely as a BMW GS but it will survive. For me, it's easier to ride in tough, slow going conditions, so you might crash LESS ? Never broke the plastic but some have. So what? Take it off and ride on. As long as you don't punch a hole in the Radiator, then you are OK. A RTW bike will always take a beating, replacing plastic might be optional? A water cooled bike is always a worry off road, but with decent guards most can survive if rider takes care.
The Vstrom is extremely strong. Frame, sub frame, engine, all very strong. You DO have to watch the lower engine case if going in Rock Gardens. Bash plate a good idea.
Suzuki Germany designed the V-Strom ... so maybe they added in more off road toughness than is obvious? Here in California we see more V-Strom's riding around than Harley-Davidson's! They seem to be more popular than ever.
Why is that?


Vstrom meet - Germany

Some history:
History of V-Strom - Stromtrooper.com

Regarding prejudice, I was talking in generalities, not about you in particular

It's not that I think Japanese bikes flimsy. That's mostly what I've ever owned and with plenty of satisfaction. But plastics are flimsy, and plastics do break, and after one has ridden a trip, and one wants to sell the bike, for example, those plastics need to replaced at a cost. A pair of crash bars could save him those costs. That was the only point I was making.

If Richard86 is comfortable with that, I'm sure the Suzuki, or any number of other models would do famously, as my own 17 year old Transalp is doing....

No, but then I don't own one so I've not really been looking for examples.

If I were to consider buying a DL, I'd research it, or buy/make additional protection for that part of the bike. I look at a Vstrom and that is something I perceive as a weakness. Whether it is or not is for the OP, or any other potential buyer to assess for themselves...

It was as simple a statement as that.

As far as your other points are concerned, I think you addressed them to the wrong person.

They're much cheaper and can go round corners?

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

That's not far off! The Cruiser crowd has been pretty hard hit here in California. Garage Jewelery is going on the auction block for a lot of these riders. Great deals for anyone in the market for a Harley now, but you still see hundreds of daily riders commuting to work and such.

Any bike you get for doing longer tours will need some up grading and additions. Vstrom, GS, Africa Twin, Gold Wing, XR400. They all can benefit from improvements.

They all get varying degrees of crash damage and they all have maintenance issues.

Like Sjoerd said, get a bike and starting riding. Over time and miles it all well become clear what works and what does not. Starting on something cheap, light and reliable is not a bad way to begin ... or end.

This is the bike you need....

60000 faultless, comfortable miles. Once you've ridden the Triumph triple you'll be hooked.

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2002 Tiger955i @ 72000 miles.
2013 Tiger800XC (2nd one) @ 15000 miles.