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Which Bike? Comments and Questions on what is the best bike for YOU, for YOUR trip. Note that we believe that ANY bike will do, so please remember that it's all down to PERSONAL OPINION. Technical Questions for all brands go in their own forum.
Photo by Igor Djokovic, camping above San Juan river, Arizona USA

I haven't been everywhere...
but it's on my list!


Photo by Igor Djokovic,
camping above San Juan river,
Arizona USA



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  #1  
Old 18 Apr 2020
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Kick start EFI bike ???

In my isolated state I’ve been pondering overland bike choices and my particular preferences. I’m currently riding a BMW XChallenge which i love, but i always have that worry about a flat battery. (Yes i know you can get jumper things but that’s missing the point). My retired overland bikes include a BMW r100gs and a Yamaha 1vj Tenere, both of which had a kick (which was used frequently) and electric start. (As did the original KTM 620/640 adventure). This got me to thinking how great it would be to have a modern(ish) EFI bike, but with kick and electric start. Is there such a thing? If not, is there any particular reason? Cheers.
Karl.
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  #2  
Old 18 Apr 2020
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I don’t think you could produce enough power from a kick to power up the EFI system - fuel pump & ecu to get the engine to start. Have you ever tried to push start a fuel injected bike with a dead battery - it ain’t easy
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  #3  
Old 18 Apr 2020
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I miss kick start as well, but they're going away from it.
You can get enduro EFI bikes still with kick start and electric starter
like ktm 500 exc-f, yamaha SR400 - only kick start.

Anyway, you can still bump start your EFI bike in case flat battery.
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  #4  
Old 19 Apr 2020
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Bullet EFI's start fine on the kicker, but practically it's only any use where you have enough power for the pump and injector but not quite enough for the starter motor as well. A small window of opportunity IMHO.

A bigger battery would serve just as well and never be a source of an oil leak or catch your trouser leg.

Found something marginally annoying with the CB500 yesterday. Where the voltage drops at any point the Engine Management light comes on. It stays on until you key off and start without the voltage dropping. This would hide any actual faults. I wonder what a Honda dealer charges for charging? All those panicky weekend riders who'll assume the EM light means ECU failure and go directly to the very expensive coffee boutique

When I want to start it like a proper rider I wheel the CL350 out

Andy
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  #5  
Old 19 Apr 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
Found something marginally annoying with the CB500 yesterday. Where the voltage drops at any point the Engine Management light comes on. It stays on until you key off and start without the voltage dropping. This would hide any actual faults. I wonder what a Honda dealer charges for charging? All those panicky weekend riders who'll assume the EM light means ECU failure and go directly to the very expensive coffee boutique

Andy
Who'd be a bike dealer these days I think they're being hit with a perfect storm of social and technological change that undermines their business model. Have a look at this article that advrider published recently -

https://advrider.com/whats-happening...e-dealerships/

It doesn't surprise me and, having been royally ripped off by many of them over the years, I won't be crying when some of them shut their doors, but longer term it does have implications for our 'way of life'. All bar one of the big 'coffee boutique' dealers round here have shut down and the one that's left is targeting the hyper enthusiast market - race rep Ducatis + go faster add on bits / £2k leathers etc.

There are still a number of one man in a shed businesses on small trading estates doing servicing / repairs etc - a bit like it used to be before corporate image became everything, but none of those are selling new bikes, just fixing existing ones. I wonder whether 10yrs down the road we'll be seeing a bike world where you buy new on the internet and take it to a bloke in overalls on a farm / under the arches somewhere rather than a 'service manager' in a sharp suit. Probably not in all cases but I certainly have a DNA level dislike of the big corporate branded dealers.
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Old 19 Apr 2020
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Definitely going to change.

I can diagnose truck and trailer faults from my dining room table now. The owners get charged £'s a month regardless of if they breakdown or not. The model of sales is indeed changing and its based on Apple rent-a-phone.

The level of knowledge at dealers of these vehicles is truly appalling because they've spent years paying peanuts and getting monkeys as a result. Why would a kid with the brains to diagnose a DCT gearbox or variable valve timing allow himself to have the pay and social status of hammer monkeys who strip drain plug threads? The remote model moves this kid to an office.

As for the selling side, who ever walked into a dealer, drank their coffee, listened to the suited lizard and bought the bike he's had stuck on the showroom floor for a year? You do your homework online and walk into the dealers with a list. Click to buy and get free delivery works better. If they can see everyone clicking on GS's in blue and white they can cut the production of low riders in baby poo yellow rather than trying to push dealers to shift them.

Andy
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Old 20 Apr 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
Bullet EFI's start fine on the kicker, but practically it's only any use where you have enough power for the pump and injector but not quite enough for the starter motor as well. A small window of opportunity IMHO.
cheap modification by adding a strong capacitor make EFI start even with no battery at all. Tested.
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  #8  
Old 29 Apr 2020
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There is a way to jump start/kickstart an EFI bike.

You have to prime the engine with fuel. AKA Powerstart/Brake cleaner etc sprayed directly into the airbox.
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Old 29 Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
There is a way to jump start/kickstart an EFI bike.

You have to prime the engine with fuel. AKA Powerstart/Brake cleaner etc sprayed directly into the airbox.
Didn’t know you couldn’t jump start a fuel injected bike - I’ve tow started a few bikes but not for a while so I guess they were carb.
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Old 29 Apr 2020
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If the battery is totally empty I guess its hard or maybe even impossible (?) to start an EFI bike. But if the battery is low as it doesnt hold enough power to turn the engine around but one still gets lights in the dash and the fuelpump primes - then it isnt a problem. Well at least I jump-started my EFI Tenere several times when the battery was low, so low it didnt turn the engine around - but I still had lights in the dash. Easy - no it wasnt as it required quite some downhill and or pushing power - but possible. Did it several times...
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  #11  
Old 30 Apr 2020
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for info. when the Honda CRF450R first went EFi it had a battery-less kick-start - using some sort of a capacitor presumably (ie. you prime it with an initial kick to prime the fuel injector, then kick again to fire the engine) - the current CRF450R is now e-start only and has and small (Li-ion) battery.

The new CT125 also has a kick-starter along with e-start, but that is not to say the kick-start side has the battery-less capacitor (although it would be a good idea on a 'utility' style bike), since it also has a regular battery of course.

So it's certainly possible, though not widespread.

Jx
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Old 1 May 2020
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Back in the annals of history the Norton Commando had a big capacitor for kickstarting with a flat battery. It didn't work particularly well, and when you junked the points and fitted an electronic ignition like any sane person would do, it didn't work at all, because the system needed 10V to generate a spark.
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Old 1 May 2020
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FI bikes can be weird.

And it does depend on the ignition system too.

I had an XT660R which would only start with a fully charged new battery.

It would turn the engine but not create a spark.

Maybe not a great example as the immobiliser had been hacked on it too so REALLY difficult to diagnose.

I always carry a jump start capable powerpack and motorcycle jump leads on an FI bike.
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Old 1 May 2020
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Originally Posted by Flipflop View Post
Didn’t know you couldn’t jump start a fuel injected bike - I’ve tow started a few bikes but not for a while so I guess they were carb.
You can. It's just really hard. And it depends on why its not running.

If you've run out of fuel and got a half dead battery, then you're unlikely to get fuel back to the injectors before your battery dies. Hence why the powerstart helps there.

If you just have a dodgy battery but your fuel lines are primed as they always should be then you can often jump start.

We've had to Push-jumpstart a 1200GS in work before. It was a nightmare and took four of us and a long carpark. You're not doing that on your own in the middle of the desert.
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  #15  
Old 1 May 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipflop View Post
Didn’t know you couldn’t jump start a fuel injected bike - I’ve tow started a few bikes but not for a while so I guess they were carb.
of course you can start EFI bike and it's easy, even a big 4T bike like tenere T7.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3ymmGm-714

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