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Which Bike? Comments and Questions on what is the best bike for YOU, for YOUR trip. Note that we believe that ANY bike will do, so please remember that it's all down to PERSONAL OPINION. Technical Questions for all brands go in their own forum.
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  #1  
Old 22 Jul 2007
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It seems totally wrong to me to have offroad bikes with seat heights so tall the rider has difficulty to reach the ground. To have a bike so heavy you cant pick it up. To have a bike that for practically any breakdown you need to phone for a tow truck back to the main dealers for repair.
All the old Brit bikes had low seats, low centre of gravity and were practical transport. They also handled well. They suited their environment of the time.
Nowadays bikes are consumer 'white goods' they are meant to be thrown away when they fail, you wont find many working vintage post 1990 bikes when they are that old, they will have been recycled into coke cans.
Why the change ? Mainly marketing hype, and it is the riders who pay.
EFI and engine management is done mostly for marketing, as is the huge horse power that these technologies allow. Seriously, how fast can you ride legally? In the UK there are so many cameras about that you wont keep your licence long if you habitually exceed 80mph. That takes less than 25hp.
I note with interest that Ted Simon fixed his Triumph when he broke a piston in Egypt and carried on to South Africa to get it repaired in a dealers. Yet the LWR team had to abandon one of their BMWs (despite having factory trained technicians witha van load of spares) for brake fault. So a broken piston on an old Triumph is less hassle than an electrical fault on a BMW. And most other 'modern, never go wrong, but scrap it if it does' bike. Do not give me the argumentthat they need EFI for emission control, it simply is not so. EFI is needed where you want to extract maximum power, but that is not 'needed' for touring. Enfields new lean burn engine meets and exceed the Indian (most strict) EEU and USA regulations, so if they can do it I am sure the Germans and Japanese could figure out how also. Maybe atthe same time improve their mpg to something like teh Enfields 75-100mpg. no need for 43 liter tank then.
Look at BMW. When they went from Carbs to EFI the power jumped up from 60 to 100+bhp. The mpg if anything dropped. But who really needs more than 60hp for touring. Of course if you into a competitive sport where you need all thh power you can get, then EFI is the answer, but having to pay many £100's for a black box instead of £2.50 for set of points is a charge too high in my opinion.
The high seat heights are mostly a result of the switch to wet sump engines (cheaper to manufacture) which allows the manufacturers to put all the works (engine, gears and clutch into one casting ) cheaper to manufacture, it also totally negates ALL the improvements brought about by modern oils, as the engine contaminates the gear oil and the gears chew up the engine oil. (shared same oil). This is why cars get 10k miles out of engine oils, and more than double that out of gear oil. Basically we are being sold a lie. So whats new? Perhaps saddam hid all his weapons of mass deception in all those little black boxes for which we have paid so dearly?

Last edited by oldbmw; 22 Jul 2007 at 20:17. Reason: typos/spelling
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  #2  
Old 22 Jul 2007
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once again we·ve been had ....!

but, thats normal if we wan·t to believe that, we live in a "democratic world" !
Hear - Hear - Oldbmw ,( remember the lovely big ice creams of the past? Look at the ones our kids are "begging" for now)?---- (even if we should have different ideas about the : WHY?
Rights of the sources of production for the labourors/users. (for everybody actually but not like now,--- in equal proportions, or something intellectualy sensible , and Not like bloody now, where some make a 50.000.000 dollar a year wage for executing their pleasant hobby, or 100·s of times more, destroying the lives of millions of Youths/ blacks/ muslims,or blue eyed people (Nice persons) )! Or do we prefer to choose the "Opium for the people" (sheep) share, that makes Beckhams,O·neals, or even Arm/ drug dealers (not to be compared MORALLY with sport idols,( cause they just can·t help it)(cheap laughs),on a big scale) to be our heroes/ models to be imitated:confused1:. Take your hat off boy; this is a powerfull and rich man!!!!
Thats the way our societies work or is·nt it????
Global, powerfull movement is needed, even if these do not lead to any moves,exeededly great for the better, remember The Beatles: it·s getting better all the ti-i-ime,---- it could·nt get much worse!
THAT IS WHY I believe that "love and peace" and the good old Hippie days were a little closer to "a good idea".... it could·nt/can·t get much worse!?
Or what do You guys think?
PS: Please do Yourselves a favour and STOP looking for these things, the existence of which, " powerfull people" continuesly try to convince us, with little drawings on a piece of paper !!!!! (my son of 3 years of age started to believe that there were tiny people in those trucks)!
Love and peace,
Dan

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbmw View Post
It seems totally wrong to me to have offroad bikes with seat heights so tall the rider has difficulty to reach the ground. To have a bike so heavy you cant pick it up. To have a bike that for practically any breakdown you need to phone for a tow truck back to the main dealers for repair.
All the old Brit bikes had low seats, low centre of gravity and were practical transport. They also handled well. They suited their environment of the time.
Nowadays bikes are consumer 'white goods' they are meant to be thrown away when they fail, you wont find many working vintage post 1990 bikes when they are that old, they will have been recycled into coke cans.
Why the change ? Mainly marketing hype, and it is the riders who pay.
EFI and engine management is done mostly for marketing, as is the huge horse power that these technologies allow. Seriously, how fast can you ride legally? In the UK there are so many cameras about that you wont keep your licence long if you habitually exceed 80mph. That takes less than 25hp.
I note with interest that Ted Simon fixed his Triumph when he broke a piston in Egypt and carried on to South Africa to get it repaired in a dealers. Yet the LWR team had to abandon one of their BMWs (despite having factory trained technicians witha van load of spares) for brake fault. So a broken piston on an old Triumph is less hassle than an electrical fault on a BMW. And most other 'modern, never go wrong, but scrap it if it does' bike. Do not give me the argumentthat they need EFI for emission control, it simply is not so. EFI is needed where you want to extract maximum power, but that is not 'needed' for touring. Enfields new lean burn engine meets and exceed the Indian (most strict) EEU and USA regulations, so if they can do it I am sure the Germans and Japanese could figure out how also.
Look at BMW. When they went from Carbs to EFI the power jumped up from 60 to 100+bhp. The mpg if anything dropped. But who really needs more than 60hp for touring. Of course if you into a competitive sport where you need all thh power you can get, then EFI is the answer, but having to pay many £100's for a black box instead of £2.50 for set of points is a charge too high in my opinion.
The high seat heights are mostly a result of the switch to wet sump engines (cheaper to manufacture) which allows the manufacturers to put all the works (engine, gears and clutch into one casting ) cheaper to manufacture, it also totally negates ALL the improvements brought about by modern oils, as the engine contaminates the gear oil and the gears chew up the engine oil. (shared same oil). This is why cars get 10k miles out of engine oils, and more than double that out of gear oil. Basically we are being sold a lie. So whats new? Perhaps saddam hid all his weapons of mass deception in all those little black boxes for which we have paid so dearly?
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  #3  
Old 22 Jul 2007
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Repeated opinion

G·day again.
Sorry for being
Well to tell the truth, I do·nt think there is any topic more ON topic? :confused1:
Whatever You say "guvnor".
Dan
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  #4  
Old 16 Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbmw View Post
The high seat heights are mostly a result of the switch to wet sump engines (cheaper to manufacture) which allows the manufacturers to put all the works (engine, gears and clutch into one casting ) cheaper to manufacture, it also totally negates ALL the improvements brought about by modern oils, as the engine contaminates the gear oil and the gears chew up the engine oil. (shared same oil). This is why cars get 10k miles out of engine oils, and more than double that out of gear oil. Basically we are being sold a lie. So whats new?
Ian,
The quote here is the story on wetsump engine design. But, it is cheap and most bikes have it nowadays - hence I was surprised to see that Yam are making a road bike with a dry sump engine.

I've never sat down to run a detailed weight comparison of the 250s available, but the quoted figures do not seem too bad to me for the Yam 250R - - my guess is that it is comparible with other 250s that are road legal. Having said that, it is not clear where the extra 20 Kg comes from compared with the F model; A good look at both of them, side by side, at a bike show may reveal the answers.


As for the Tenere, it will have to beat the new KTM 690 Adv which will appear in 2008; I think that bike will be the benchmark for single thumpers, on weight alone (and it is certain to have White Power suspension!).
I still consider 183 Kg to be over-weight in this day and age; the Yam TT600R is about 140 Kg - a design that goes back to the 1990s.
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  #5  
Old 16 Sep 2007
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Talking

Mmmm....don't most dry sump motors also have shared gearbox and engine oils? LC4 for sure, Rotax 4T family? Most Japanese 600cc+ singles?

The only exception I can think of is the Honda motor that powers the Montesa 4RT trials bike (itself derived from the CRF250) which has separate gearbox and engine oils.

I thought that 'oil sharing' is the reason why we have motorcycle specific 4-stroke oils i.e. they're designed to work in the engine and gearbox. And why it may not be wise to use car engine oil in a 4 stroke motorcycle i.e. it's not designed for use in gearboxes.

That said, I'd guess a bike with wet sump engine is cheaper to produce than a dry sump - no oil tank etc. But isn't one advantage of a dry sump engine that the oil can be circulated externally to the engine and therefore be cooled?
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  #6  
Old 16 Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Mmmm....don't most dry sump motors also have shared gearbox and engine oils? LC4 for sure, Rotax 4T family? Most Japanese 600cc+ singles?

The only exception I can think of is the Honda motor that powers the Montesa 4RT trials bike (itself derived from the CRF250) which has separate gearbox and engine oils.

I thought that 'oil sharing' is the reason why we have motorcycle specific 4-stroke oils i.e. they're designed to work in the engine and gearbox. And why it may not be wise to use car engine oil in a 4 stroke motorcycle i.e. it's not designed for use in gearboxes.

That said, I'd guess a bike with wet sump engine is cheaper to produce than a dry sump - no oil tank etc. But isn't one advantage of a dry sump engine that the oil can be circulated externally to the engine and therefore be cooled?
Hi Ian,
It's always interesting how one statement or question leads to 1/2 a dozen or more! I believe you are right about sharing oil in dry sump designs, such as the TT600R, for example.
So, some input from the engine design experts here would be interesting.

For sure (to quote Rossi), most modern road bike engines are wet sump and quite a few high performance engines also have oil coolers.
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  #7  
Old 16 Sep 2007
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As far as I know, no British dry sump bike shared oils, until triumph in 1970 shared primary chaincase oil with the engine. many riders retrofitted the seals between the two. It makes no sense to have bits of clutch plate in your engines oil just to get the wrong grade in your wet clutch. ( even tho the sharing was very limited.)
I do not see why anyone would share oils using a dry sump system.

Re weight, current 500cc Enfields are 160 KG and they usually exceed 80mpg.
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  #8  
Old 16 Sep 2007
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The Japanese somehow figured this new fangled "Wet Sump" mallarky quite a while ago....like maybe 1956 or so, since Honda copied verbatim the Gilera and MV Augusta GP inline four race bike designs...both wet sumps IIRC. And by the mid 60's it became standard on most all Japanese bikes. Seems to work quite well since about 98% of all Jap bikes use the wet sump design. (Not counting 2 strokes, the new CRF's, and possibly a few other obscure models??)

We would need Kevin Cameron to detail all the advantages of Wet sump vs. Dry sump from an engineers perspective, but I can assure vintage motor heads there are several good reasons why they went this way nearly 50 years ago.

From cost of manufacture, to effecient placement of gearbox in the case to allow motor to be smaller/lighter and more mass centralized, to carrying more oil capacity....where gears actually help cool off the oil.

Somewhere along the way they learned how to build a clutch that doesn't shed bits (usually) to using much improved oil spray distribution / filtering /cooling techniques to keep things happy, all in a relatively small, light ALL Aluminum package.

Early on, what the Japanese really had that the Brits didn't was knowledge of latest Metalurgical tech. This knowledge was given the Japanese by the US military after WW2 (who stole it from the Germans!!! True!) in an effort to give their industries a boost. We gave them all kinds of technology...including the transistor....which soon after led to the end of Points ignition. The Japanese are also the world's best reverse engineers. Now Triumph are playing that same game....see new 675 triple!!

Having grown up with, raced and pushed pre-unit, right side shifting Triumph's and BSA's, I was thrilled to own my first Honda 50 in about 1963. You COULD NOT blow that bike up....and trust me...we tried. Every guy I ever met riding early Brit bikes blew them up at some point (including yours truly), everyone had a story about the 4000 mile valve train/top end and drive chains made of butter. (Jap chains weren't much better in the early days)

Brit bikes worked great in rainy, cool UK. But not so great in the S. California desert, if ridden hard. They did great at Ascot Park (where I raced a Bultaco Pursang) ALL the races were at night!

Both Honda's current motocross racers (CFR250/CRF450) use seperate Oil/Gear Box compartments. I've forgotten the technical justification for going this route. But who knows, maybe they are now re-examining this concept? It's appealing in many ways....

I like the idea of using oil optimized for the engine...and gear box oil optimized for the gear box...this has an undeniable logic to it. And these motors are so small it amazing....I think they got the idea from Vertimati Bros
motor.

The main problem for years with combining Engine and Gear box oil is molecular shearing (or whatever the true technical reference would be). This happens when whirring gears break up oil molecules. Sheared molecules at some point cause the oil to lose film strength, which can then be broken down by heat to where protection is lessened.

But for 20 years modern oils have been up to the task of resisting this breakdown. On my dirt bikes I still change oil about every 500 miles. Hard miles, redline miles, bogged in sand miles, at full throttle in 35c temps.

Patrick
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  #9  
Old 17 Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollydog View Post
The Japanese somehow figured this new fangled "Wet Sump" mallarky quite a while ago....like maybe 1956 or so, since Honda copied verbatim the Gilera and MV Augusta GP inline four race bike designs...both wet sumps IIRC. And by the mid 60's it became standard on most all Japanese bikes. Seems to work quite well since about 98% of all Jap bikes use the wet sump design. (Not counting 2 strokes, the new CRF's, and possibly a few other obscure models??)

BMW are wetsump, but had teh sense to keep the oils separate.

We would need Kevin Cameron to detail all the advantages of Wet sump vs. Dry sump from an engineers perspective, but I can assure vintage motor heads there are several good reasons why they went this way nearly 50 years ago.

Yes, cheapness of manufacture, suited the American market where neither economy or roadholding was of any consequence.

From cost of manufacture, to effecient placement of gearbox in the case to allow motor to be smaller/lighter and more mass centralized, to carrying more oil capacity....where gears actually help cool off the oil.

A wet sump bike 'has' to have a higher centre of gravity, because the crankshaft is above the oil, therefore wll above the bottom of the crankcase, unlike old Brit bikes.
.
Somewhere along the way they learned how to build a clutch that doesn't shed bits (usually) to using much improved oil spray distribution / filtering /cooling techniques to keep things happy, all in a relatively small, light ALL Aluminum package.

Early on, what the Japanese really had that the Brits didn't was knowledge of latest Metalurgical tech. This knowledge was given the Japanese by the US military after WW2 (who stole it from the Germans!!! True!) in an effort to give their industries a boost. We gave them all kinds of technology...including the transistor....which soon after led to the end of Points ignition. The Japanese are also the world's best reverse engineers. Now Triumph are playing that same game....see new 675 triple!!

Having grown up with, raced and pushed pre-unit, right side shifting Triumph's and BSA's, I was thrilled to own my first Honda 50 in about 1963. You COULD NOT blow that bike up....and trust me...we tried. Every guy I ever met riding early Brit bikes blew them up at some point (including yours truly), everyone had a story about the 4000 mile valve train/top end and drive chains made of butter. (Jap chains weren't much better in the early days)

Perhaps you would have had better luck if you tried a Unit construction Triumph, ( the whole range was unit construction then albeit with separate oils) no use comapring a 1963 Hondy witha 1939 triumph bike.

Brit bikes worked great in rainy, cool UK. But not so great in the S. California desert, if ridden hard. They did great at Ascot Park (where I raced a Bultaco Pursang) ALL the races were at night!

I note the 1961 24 hour record for a 500 cc by Velocette still stands at just over 100mph.

Both Honda's current motocross racers (CFR250/CRF450) use seperate Oil/Gear Box compartments. I've forgotten the technical justification for going this route. But who knows, maybe they are now re-examining this concept? It's appealing in many ways....

perhaps these high strung bikes need the right oil in the various bits to survive.

I like the idea of using oil optimized for the engine...and gear box oil optimized for the gear box...this has an undeniable logic to it. And these motors are so small it amazing....I think they got the idea from Vertimati Bros
motor.
Nope, old Brit bikes

The main problem for years with combining Engine and Gear box oil is molecular shearing (or whatever the true technical reference would be). This happens when whirring gears break up oil molecules. Sheared molecules at some point cause the oil to lose film strength, which can then be broken down by heat to where protection is lessened.

which means the poor design has negated teh advantage of using long life high performance oils.

But for 20 years modern oils have been up to the task of resisting this breakdown. On my dirt bikes I still change oil about every 500 miles. Hard miles, redline miles, bogged in sand miles, at full throttle in 35c temps.

How long do you think a Jap all in one machine would last on monograde dino oil ? these poor mechanical designs have only managed to work by abusing the properties of new synthetic oils. Old Brit bikes had similar servicing periods on Dino oils. This is why cars and those who do not mix oils have 2-4 times the service intervals.

Patrick
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