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**Overland Tonka** · #**121** 7 Jan 2015

I read this earlier via email....

As expected i suppose. I get the whole worldwide and not an EU thing, but would still question it.

The bit that made me chuckle was how it appeared they were doing us a favour as for them its a lot of hassle and they don't make money...WELL DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND BACK OUT OF OFFERING THE SERVICE JUST LIKE THE AA HAVE DONE....THEN OUR NEAREST PLACE TO GET A CARNET WILL BE THE ADAC..Simple, there you go, i have sorted the whole problem...

**Mart456** · #**122** 8 Jan 2015

Sent the complaint and petition to Jean Todt the president of the FIA and the management of the FIA in Europe,

Lets hope they actually respond,

I really do wonder whether they will respond positively or not given the FIA's objective is "to promote safe travel, to promote freedom of mobility and to encourage sensible, sustainable tourism worldwide"

Given the application of their policies is going against the above, i really do hope they see sense.....

https://www.change.org/p/european-co...ter?lang=en-GB

**c-m** · #**123** 8 Jan 2015

I signed the petition as I have previously had correspondence with RAC on this issue. Really we need to be complaining to the FIA and RAC should also be complaining to the FIA on our behalf, after all they seemingly don't make money on carnets, and it's a major hassle for them.

I think the next stage after complaining to the FIA is to complain to the European Competition Commission about the FIA's convention not letting automotive clubs compete on carents. RAC may see the issuing of carents as public service and non-commercial activity, but isn't necessarily how a judge would see it. Furthermore, in their response to you the RAC state "We make very little in the way of profit from carnets" That sounds like a commercial activity to me.

From what I understand, the RAC also issues carnets for Irish registered bike too, to they are also being stuffed by the withdrawal of the guarantee.

I haven't yet asked ADAC if they would supply a carnet to an Irish registered bike, after all the convention doesn't stop them since technically they don't have their own issuing body (they use the UK's)

**Mart456** · #**124** 9 Jan 2015

Maybe the whole Carnet system will become centralised one day....

" If an alternative issuer is not identified the CAA operation will close on March 31, 2015. New clients will be obliged to wait for the FIA to launch its centralized issuing department expected in the third quarter of 2015."

Press release from Software Company
Maxxor facilitates cross-border travel through automation of FIA processes | ITWeb

Project Plan
ISSUU - Cpd project overview mind maps v1 2 by Gerald Geoff Elske

**Old Git Ray** · #**125** 9 Jan 2015

I recieved a futher reply from the CMA. Another waste of time.
Below is the full text of our e-mails and at the bottom some of the links they sent me. Sadly, boring reading but it is what it is.

My original submission:-

Dear Sir /Madam,

Hi, I am a world travelling motorcyclist and my enquiry is regarding the RAC's monopoly on obtaining a Carnet de Passages (CDP) in the UK.

Being realistic, and without trying to be rude you may not know what a CDP is - it is not something that many of us need.
To explain the CDP, it is an administrative system that allows persons worldwide to temporarily take their vehicles through certain countries without paying importation or registration fees. Most countries in the world have a motoring organisation (in the case of the UK it is the RAC) who have the responsibility of administering this system. It is based on a deposit system where the deposit is (or was as is the case now) refunded upon the vehicle legally being returned to the country of origin, this being verified via the customs authority.

The RAC, up until sometime in 2012/13 had in place a system whereby the cost was made up of a document payment, an administration fee and thirdly a deposit. It is the deposit that is the problem and this fee can be colossal.
The deposit is based on a multiplier of the value of your vehicle and ranges from 1.5x e.g. for Australia, all the way to 8x for Egypt (for an £8,000 motorcycle it is £64,000). The excessive cost is to cover the huge fees and costs levied by a country, should the vehicle be left, illegally, on their soil. For this reason most travelling vehicles are old, using a newish vehicle being reserved for the rich.
Previously a UK resident could either:
1) pay the full deposit up to a maximum of £10,000 direct to the RAC and get it back on return to the UK, or
2) arrange a bank guarantee to ring-fence/freeze funds in the applicants bank to cover the deposit to the benefit of the RAC should a claim be made by a foreign country, or
3) Pay a fee of 10% of the deposit to an insurance company (one had to fill in a application form to the company and process it through the RAC). 50% (half) of this cost being refunded upon the vehicles return.

In this last item, the insurance company was a specific one designated by the RAC and this to my mind was a monopoly. It was also the one taken by people who did not have sufficient funds to supply a deposit or a bank guarantee.

Now however, the RAC have removed the deposit and bank guarantee and will only allow the 'insurance' that they now call a security. It is also now 10.6% of which, 50% of that (i.e. 5.3%) is refunded on vehicle return.
Going back to our £8,000 motorcycle through Egypt, this, on top of fees, would cost almost £3,400. A fee that previously could have been circumvented.

It is however quite possible and legal to use another countries carnet service and this is regularly done by persons coming from a country that do not have a qualifying automobile association. One in question is the ADAC in Germany. They still have the deposit system in place and our £8,000 motorcycle would have to pay a fully refundable deposit of a mere £2500.
It was at one time possible for UK residents to use this organisation however this has now been stopped, presumably following complaints from the RAC as the ADAC will only now accept applications from UK residents accompanied by a letter of "no objection" from the RAC. Needless to say these are not forthcoming from a company that stands to profit over £3,000 from our above biker.
Unlike the US AAA who appear to give them out freely. See www.adventurebikerider.com/forum/26-trav...imit=10&start=10

The organisation overseeing this system is The Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) in France. I have written to them twice on this matter, in November 2013 and February 2014. I have had no reply to my e-mails.

To my mind this system, which I believe was drawn up prior to most of the EU integration, is an unfair monopoly and flies in the face of current EU cross border trade and fairness.

Will you please look at this advice me and my fellow travellers accordingly.

Yours sincerely,

Ray Hall QPM

The first reply:-

Mr Ray Karen Hall
Email: General.Enquiries@cma.gsi.gov.uk
Telephone: 020 3738 6000
05 January 2015
Dear Mr Hall
Royal Automobile Club – Carnet de Passages
Thank you for your email sent to the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) on 29th December 2014.
As requested, we have noted your complaint and brought it to the attention of our pipeline/intelligence teams. We use the intelligence we gather, alongside our Prioritisation Principles (www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-p...itisation-principles), to develop our pipeline of new projects and programmes of work and make the best use of CMA resources in terms of real outcomes for UK consumers.
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
Yours sincerely

Alan Sullivan
Contacts Team
Competition and Markets Authority

As you can probably guess, I have been given the elbow in the form of 'our priorities' etc so I suppose we will be at the bottom of the pile forever.

We will see.

I replied thus:-

Dear Mr Sullivan,

Thank you for your informative reply and the appropriate links.
However, you do not seem to have provided any advice as was my main request.
Having been a police officer for most of my life I understand priorities and sadly in real terms it means that the least popular (numerically) complaints/problems go to the bottom of the pile and stay there at each shuffle.
I would suggest that, as muted in my original text, this is not a problem you will often recieve correspondence about and as such will never be dealt with.
What I am saying is that without your help or advice, this problem will proceed unchecked indefinitely and putting it in with "Prioritisation Principles" will ensure that it is never addressed.
This will never be a problem to vehicle bourne travellers like Jeremy Clarkson or Ewan McGreggor but it does affect those of us on more normal incomes.
Please provide us with some advice that we may tackle the RAC from a position of knowledge.

Yours sincerely
Ray Hall QPM

The CMA's second response:-

Dear Mr Hall
Royal Automobile Club – Carnet de Passages
Thank you for your further email sent to the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) on 6th January 2015.
Your additional comments have been noted. However, I should stress that the CMA has no power to intervene in individual disputes or seek redress on behalf of consumers or businesses, and you may wish to seek your own independent legal advice. Given the nature of your complaint, we would suggest you may also wish to bring your concerns to the attention of the relevant Trading Standards Service (TSS). Details of how to report a problem to TSS are available via the Citizens Advice consumer service website at:
www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_protection_for_the_consu mer_e/protection_trading_standards_e/reporting_a_problem_to_trading_standards.h tm
The CMA is required to use its powers to promote competition for the benefit of consumers generally. It has no function of protecting individual consumers from malpractice or individual businesses from anti-competitive behaviour. The CMA has full information gathering powers to enable it to perform its functions, and does not depend on receiving unsolicited complaints about traders and businesses. It has no duty to consider complaints.
The CMA nonetheless appreciates the voluntary provision of information about practices in the market place. It always reads and acknowledges receipt of such information, and records it for use if and when relevant to an investigation or other action. But it makes no promise whatever that any action will be taken in response to the provision of such information.
However, we have noted the further information you have provided and brought it to the attention of our pipeline/intelligence teams. We use the intelligence we gather, alongside our Prioritisation Principles (www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-prioritisation-principles), to develop our pipeline of new projects and programmes of work and make the best use of CMA resources in terms of real outcomes for UK consumers.
Thank you again for bringing this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely
Alan Sullivan
Contacts Team Competition and Markets Authority

I followed the links in the initial reply and found this:
To me, the main part of which is this: (The important bits are highlighted in blue.)

Competition encourages companies to offer consumers goods and services at the most favourable terms. It encourages efficiency and innovation and reduces prices. To be effective, competition requires companies to act independently of each other, but subject to the competitive pressure exerted by the others.

European antitrust policy is developed from two central rules set out in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:

First, Article 101 of the Treaty prohibits agreements between two or more independent market operators which restrict competition. This provision covers both horizontal agreements (between actual or potential competitors operating at the same level of the supply chain) and vertical agreements (between firms operating at different levels, i.e. agreement between a manufacturer and its distributor). Only limited exceptions are provided for in the general prohibition. The most flagrant example of illegal conduct infringing Article 101 is the creation of a cartel between competitors, which may involve price-fixing and/or market sharing.
Second, Article 102 of the Treaty prohibits firms that hold a dominant position on a given market to abuse that position, for example by charging unfair prices, by limiting production, or by refusing to innovate to the prejudice of consumers.

The Commission is empowered by the Treaty to apply these rules and has a number of investigative powers to that end (e.g. inspection at business and non-business premises, written requests for information, etc.). The Commission may also impose fines on undertakings which violate the EU antitrust rules. The main rules on procedures are set out in Council Regulation (EC) 1/2003. Read more about:

The procedures for anticompetitive practices cases
The procedures for abuse of dominance cases
The key actors and checks and balances in proceedings for the application of Articles 101 and 102 TFEU .

National Competition Authorities (NCAs) are empowered to apply Articles 101 and 102 of the Treaty fully, to ensure that competition is not distorted or restricted. National courts may also apply these provisions to protect the individual rights conferred on citizens by the Treaty. Building on these achievements, the Communication on Ten Years of Antitrust Enforcement identified further areas to create a common competition enforcement area in the EU.

As part of the overall enforcement of EU competition law, the Commission has also developed and implemented a policy on the application of EU competition law to actions for damages before national courts. It also cooperates with national courts to ensure that EU competition rules are applied coherently throughout the EU.

The important bit, Article 102 is here: Again, salient bits in blue.

Consolidated version of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union - PART THREE: UNION POLICIES AND INTERNAL ACTIONS - TITLE VII: COMMON RULES ON COMPETITION, TAXATION AND APPROXIMATION OF LAWS - Chapter 1: Rules on competition - Section 1: Rules applying to undertakings - Article 102 (ex Article 82 TEC)

Article 102ex Article 82 TEC)

Any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market in so far as it may affect trade between Member States.

Such abuse may, in particular, consist in:

(a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions;

(b) limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of consumers;

(c) applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;

(d) making the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.

If, as the RAC continually state, they are governed by the FIA rules then it would appear to me that it is the FIA that need to comply (catch up ?) with current EU legislation as well as the RAC.

Anyway, as can be seen the CMA are a glove puppet bunch and a waste of tax payers money. They are after all an 'Authority' and not a QUANGO.

**c-m** · #**126** 9 Jan 2015

You're working hard at this but I fear you're barking up the wrong tree.

It's not that the RAC are unwilling to let us use the RAC, but that if they do so without "good reason" (whatever that may be), then they will incur the wrath of the FIA.

We need to be complaining to the FIA to allow anyone in the EU to use any issuing automobile club regardless of where their vehicle is registered. The fact that the FIA don't allow this is probably contary to European law, but that would need to be tested in court.

We should try and seek RAC's co-operation in complaining to the FIA, but be prepared not to receive it. After the FIA the next step should be the French authorities (FIA HQ is Paris), and then the European Commision

**duibhceK** · #**127** 9 Jan 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by c-m

You're working hard at this but I fear you're barking up the wrong tree.

It's not that the RAC are unwilling to let us use the RAC, but that if they do so without "good reason" (whatever that may be), then they will incur the wrath of the FIA.

I'm not sure that is the case. FIA doesn't really care which organization you get your carnet from, they all need to pass through FIA anyway. So FIA sending out a reminder of the rules that were imposed to the different bodies in the various countries must have come from one of those bodies.
ADAC will not have been the one complaining. I'm sure they'll just as happily take money from a Brit same as they do from a German.
The only party in this story that actually benefits from the rules being strictly followed is RAC. I would wager some money that it was actually RAC that complained to FIA, after getting a number of requests from Brits to allow them to go with ADAC.
RAC got annoyed at ADAC telling normally monopoly-protected RAC customers they would gladly provide the carnet if they requested a waiver from RAC. So RAC complains to FIA that such was not part of the deal. FIA sends out a reminder to the various bodies about the anti-competetion clause in their contracts. RAC than uses that reminder to tell their customers: "see, it's not our fault, our hands are tied. Now gives us your money."
But that's probably just my own personal cynical interpretation of how the world works.

**Mart456** · #**128** 9 Jan 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by duibhceK

I'm not sure that is the case. FIA doesn't really care which organization you get your carnet from, they all need to pass through FIA anyway. So FIA sending out a reminder of the rules that were imposed to the different bodies in the various countries must have come from one of those bodies.
ADAC will not have been the one complaining. I'm sure they'll just as happily take money from a Brit same as they do from a German.
The only party in this story that actually benefits from the rules being strictly followed is RAC. I would wager some money that it was actually RAC that complained to FIA, after getting a number of requests from Brits to allow them to go with ADAC.
RAC got annoyed at ADAC telling normally monopoly-protected RAC customers they would gladly provide the carnet if they requested a waiver from RAC. So RAC complains to FIA that such was not part of the deal. FIA sends out a reminder to the various bodies about the anti-competetion clause in their contracts. RAC than uses that reminder to tell their customers: "see, it's not our fault, our hands are tied. Now gives us your money."
But that's probably just my own personal cynical interpretation of how the world works.

I agree, the RAC spent some money last year attempting to improve their processes and to make the Carnet service more profitable, notably by reducing the options available travellers. :-(

I doubt, after this amount of work and a good pat on the back for making the company more money, that they would make it easy for people to use another issuer.

They have said they have passed our comments on to the the FIA (Probably Complaining), but they certainly have not indicated in anyway that 1) they agree with our cause or 2) they are prepared to work with us to change this

I do not see them becoming the "Motorists’ Champion" as they desire any time soon....

The President of the FIA read the petition and complaint last night, lets see what they have to say about the issue...

**c-m** · #**129** 9 Jan 2015

You're partly missing the point though.

If the FIA drop the silly convention, then we won't even need to ask RAC to let us use someone else. We'll be free to use whomever we choose.

Otherwise RAC will just 'hide' behind the convention. "No sir, sorry you can't use another organisation without an exceptional reason, FIA won't allow it and we'll get told off"

**duibhceK** · #**130** 9 Jan 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by c-m

convention

That is the magic word isn't it. It is a convention they all agreed upon. There is no requirement in law for this convention, it is a contractual agreement between FIA and the various automobile organizations. You can bet that it wasn't FIA that requested that particular clause to be added, but rather the local agencies trying to protect their respective monopolies.
In this case the only ones that have any benefit from enforcing the particular rule are the RAC, fearing to lose customers to ADAC.
If RAC would allow any request from a customer preferring the bank guarantee option to make use of ADAC's services as an "exceptional circumstance", no-one, not FIA, not ADAC nor the customer would have any objections to that. RAC has the power to do this, they prefer not to and pass the ball to FIA in stead of improving their service to their customers or allowing customers to go elsewhere.

**Dave Nunns** · #**131** 13 Jan 2015

Here's my Dear John letter:

Thank you for your emails regarding the RAC Carnet Scheme, I’m sorry for the delay in my response. I have now looked into the queries you have raised and would like to confirm the following

You are correct that in 2013 as part of an overall review of the Carnet scheme we removed the option to secure carnets via cash deposit and bank guarantees. This was for commercial reasons as the time taken in processing carnets and claims that were secured by this method and the relatively small numbers of individuals who chose to take up those options made these options financially unviable for us.

The Carnet scheme is operated under an international Customs Convention and operated by the FIA. In participating in the Carnet scheme, RAC is bound by the terms of that convention and the rules of the FIA. All clubs have recently been reminded by the FIA that the letters of non-objection should only be issued in exceptional circumstances and we therefore have no option to comply with this. I have checked with the team and there have are no other circumstances, apart from international rally, when we would consider issuing a letter on non-objection.

In operating the Carnet scheme we are essentially performing a public function of general economic interest and are therefore not carrying out a commercial activity that would fall under EU competition rules – issuing clubs do not compete against each other in an economic market for the issuing of carnets in the same way that individual EU Member State government entities do not compete against each other for the issuing of passports to their citizens. You mention RAC holding a monopoly on carnets. We are the only organisation that issues carnets in the UK, however, it is up to the FIA to appoint other issuing authorities and prior to their withdrawal from the scheme the AA were also providers of Carnets.

I hope this answers your questions but please get in touch if we can help further.

Kind regards

Louise Campbell
Customer Care Officer

I will need a CdP for Iran, Pak & India in May & June, so it looks like I'll be paying the full amount

Dave

**c-m** · #**132** 13 Jan 2015

As a side note I've asked the AA if they have any plans to rejoin the CdP programe. They still issue Internional Driving Permits. Not holding my breath, but wanted to make them aware of the discontent with RAC.

**Mark hadley** · #**133** 14 Jan 2015

I would be surprised if the ADAC wanted our business. They have a strong German focus and mildly discourage non-German membership. Also they can only fulfill their obligations to their core German members by having arrangements with local motoring organisations (the AA in the UK). So it is not a competitive business.

**c-m** · #**134** 14 Jan 2015

If ADAC breakdowns didn't want non-german business, they wouldn't accept it.
I've been with ADAC for past 4-5 years never had any problem with them accepting my money.

In terms of carnets they are happy to accept non-german business.

**Mark hadley** · #**135** 15 Jan 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by c-m

If ADAC breakdowns didn't want non-german business, they wouldn't accept it.
I've been with ADAC for past 4-5 years never had any problem with them accepting my money.

In terms of carnets they are happy to accept non-German business.

I use ADAC, I am very happy with them. They accept my membership, but I'm not sure if they "want" it. The whole way they are run and how they communicate is "run by Germans for Germans" For example the renewal paperwork is in German language only with bank instructions that only work if you have a German bank account. (So we phone up and use a credit card)

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