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Trip Paperwork Covers all documentation, carnets, customs and country requirements, how to deal with insurance etc.
Photo by Ellen Delis, Lagunas Ojos del Campo, Antofalla, Catamarca

I haven't been everywhere...
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Photo by Ellen Delis,
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Antofalla, Catamarca



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  • 1 Post By Prisoner62113
  • 1 Post By Fern
  • 1 Post By CourtFisher
  • 1 Post By pecha72
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  #1  
Old 24 May 2013
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Allegedly "Official" CdP map: Your experiences?

This map appeared at http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...al-south-70438 in a discussion about where you do/don't need a CdP. The poster alleges it’s "official", although he never stated the source.


Other Hubbers presented the consensus that no CdP is required in the Americas. (the thread was about the Americas).

I believe it's inaccurate/wrong for Japan and the continent of Africa.

Traveling N to S through Africa, it can be done without: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...0-tenere-64769 however if trying to enter RSA at an airport or sea-port it is mandatory: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...oid-need-69788

Japan: at http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...t-carnet-65950 it says you can travel Sakahlin to Wakkanai without a CdP.

Quotes from the other thread include:

Quote:
Originally Posted by markharf View Post
the map is nonsense now, as it ever was. I'll repeat: No need for (and no recommendation for) a carnet anyplace in north, central or south america.
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfy View Post
it is a official map from 2012, not directly nonsense i guess.

The list of "red" countries are really small and all outside of america.

Surfy
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
there are lots of allegedly "official" websites/organisations, including the uk fco, the us cia etc. That are best treated with a pinch of salt (or at worst as the comic strip they are). Take advice from the hubb and you're much more likely to have useful, up to date, correct, verifiable facts.

However, it's your choice. I prefer to get my view of the world from the daily express.[IMG]file:///C:\Users\crb\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image001.gif[/IMG]

ps. I've read of several people on the hubb who got into japan without a cdp and there's a chap who rode through many countries in africa without a cdp also. Basically, the map you posted is verging on total fabrication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfy View Post
the map shows the situation for traveling a "legal way".

Yes you can drive through africa without a carnet, because the guys on the border mostly don't know what are the rules.

But: Not all officials are educated that way. You can get into trouble - when you meet that guy who know what is legal.

Do you mean that guys who had to pay high bribes had done their paperwork in a good way? Or does he had a faked carnet, or something else to make out of him a "weak" target?

When you study the entrys about japan at hubb - you will see that you only can get a temporary import-paper when you arrive in a given way.

Did you really take the risk to get stranded because you dont have a carnet, who cost 220 usd?

Surfy
Quote:
Originally Posted by markharf View Post
you may be right (or not) about specific countries or specific borders. The map itself, however, remains nonsense. No amount of naming it "official" will change that.

The op asked about the americas. That happens to be an area in which there is no debate at all about the need for a carnet. Answering by posting your "official" map merely displays ignorance.

If anyone wants to argue about africa or japan, by all means have at it.

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyt View Post
from personal experience, i can tell you that there is no need for a carnet in canada, usa, mexico, all the central american countries, colombia, ecuador, peru, bolivia, argentina, and chile.

It is important to have a drivers license, passport, and vehicle ownership document all in the same name. People have done this trip with a sketchy title, but i would do what i had to, to get legit title with the bike, so take into account how long it might take to get it, and plan to stay in the country you buy the bike in until you receive title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pecha72 View Post
i think it´s been common consensus on this site for years, that you do not need a carnet anywhere in the americas.

The eternal confusion about the carnet probably comes from the fact, that there are countries, that allow you to use the carnet, if you have it, as your temp import document (maybe this can fall into the category “recommended”, although personally i would not bother, if the country has another temporary import paper). And then there are some countries (but not in the americas) that absolutely demand that you have the carnet, or else your vehicle´s entry into that country will be very tough, will take days in the best scenario, and will most likely include some large-scale payments and/or bonds to be made – egypt, india, and australia come to mind here.

And finally, there are a lot of countries, where their border officials most likely won´t have a clue, what that yellow paper is. But if the border has a lot of truck traffic, then they´ll probably know what it is, as it´s still a common paper for truckers (and that is also another possibility, why you get maps showing a carnet is recommended somewhere).
I believe it to be, at best, very misleading. What are your comments on the map?
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  #2  
Old 24 May 2013
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Regarding Japan, I went Sakhalin->Hokkaido last summer and no carnet was required. The temp import document they gave me was completely acceptable when shipping out of Yokohama later on.

Also Malaysia does apparently not absolutely require it, at least at land borders. When crossing Singapore->Malaysia I had to force the customs guys to put down their card game and talk to me. And then all they said was go away. No papers filled in, and not for lack of trying. Haven't been to the Thai border yet but hear it is pretty much the same up there.
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  #3  
Old 24 May 2013
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Sorry - i was not online - elsewhere i had answered your question:

The Source of the map is the TCS, our automobile club in switzerland.

This Map was Online till Februar 2013 - where it is replaced with a drop down menue for each country. Too bad, this overview was valuable.. It will soon be outdated - but actually it is valid.

You can do a triple-check if you want (links are here)
4x4tripping: Fahrzeug Formalitäten recherchieren...

General stuff about the carnet:
4x4tripping: Das Carnet de Passages en Douane (CPD)

Our Experiences:

During our transafrica we used the carnet in Angola (where it is not valid).
Without our querying we would had entered South Africa without carnet (what is not legal)

We had a small accident in SA, where the police ask after the car papers and the legalization of using them in SA. Good that we had the carnet.

So you can have luck and can drive at countrys who needs a carnet - but if you meet the wrong official - you can pickup some bad action too :-) There is no reason for trying cheating - when you just want to enjoy your ride, or?

The funny part of the other thread was, that we all wrote "you don't need a carnet in South america" Therefore this is common sense AND is also showed in the map - chris where is the point of discussion?

Surfy
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  #4  
Old 24 May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfy View Post
Sorry - i was not online - elsewhere i had answered your question:

The Source of the map is the TCS, our automobile club in switzerland.

This Map was Online till Februar 2013 - where it is replaced with a drop down menue for each country. Too bad, this overview was valuable.. It will soon be outdated - but actually it is valid.

You can do a triple-check if you want (links are here)
4x4tripping: Fahrzeug Formalitäten recherchieren...

General stuff about the carnet:
4x4tripping: Das Carnet de Passages en Douane (CPD)

Our Experiences:

During our transafrica we used the carnet in Angola (where it is not valid).
Without our querying we would had entered South Africa without carnet (what is not legal)

We had a small accident in SA, where the police ask after the car papers and the legalization of using them in SA. Good that we had the carnet.

So you can have luck and can drive at countrys who needs a carnet - but if you meet the wrong official - you can pickup some bad action too :-) There is no reason for trying cheating - when you just want to enjoy your ride, or?

The funny part of the other thread was, that we all wrote "you don't need a carnet in South america" Therefore this is common sense AND is also showed in the map - chris where is the point of discussion?

Surfy
My view is things are valuable if they are up to date/correct. Just because the Swiss automobile club produced it, doesn't make it valid, the same as if the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office or the US Central Intelligence Agency or any other website claims things to be true/correct/accurate.

As proved on the other thread and post number 2, the information for Central and South America is wrong/misleading. Japan also, Africa also, Malaysia also.

I'm sure if you're stopped by a South African policeman and you can prove you've entered the country at a legitimate border post (stamp in passport and possession of TIP) you can legitimately claim that the Customs official at the border is correct and some admin clerk at the Swiss AA may have spilt some red/yellow ink on a piece of paper. So where's the cheating?

This discussion will, IMHO, also help to produce a definitive map, rather than the act of fiction in post number 1. Grant is looking to produce a Wiki/country profile soon, where a genuinely correct/updateable map would be a positive addition, I feel.

For information: You're very lucky to only be paying 220 dollars (or euros or swiss francs?) for a CdP for a car. In the UK you need to leave a guarantee/bond for 500% of the vehicle value to enter India, for example, where you legitimately require a CdP.

Rather than defending the inaccurate map you published, why don't you help by writing a list of countries where the Swiss AA map is factually correct and where it's wrong/misleading, just like Prisoner62113?
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  #5  
Old 25 May 2013
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Nepal is obligatory apart from Indian plated vehicles.
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  #6  
Old 26 May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
This map appeared at http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...al-south-70438 in a discussion about where you do/don't need a CdP. The poster alleges it’s "official", although he never stated the source.


Other Hubbers presented the consensus that no CdP is required in the Americas. (the thread was about the Americas).

I believe it's inaccurate/wrong for Japan and the continent of Africa.

Traveling N to S through Africa, it can be done without: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...0-tenere-64769 however if trying to enter RSA at an airport or sea-port it is mandatory: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...oid-need-69788

Japan: at http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...t-carnet-65950 it says you can travel Sakahlin to Wakkanai without a CdP.

Quotes from the other thread include:















I believe it to be, at best, very misleading. What are your comments on the map?
Of course it's misleading, and always has been.
There is only one "official" source, the organization that administers the CdP
system worldwide, Alliance International de Tourisme (AIT):

Public - Carnet de Passages en Douane

Note that AIT has no posted worldwide map, and has (always) included
these caveat footnotes:
"1.This list may contain errors due to changes in national legislation.
2. In certain African countries, the CPD is not officially required, but is often used to facilitate temporary importation.
3. In Brazil, the CPD is not required for vehicles entering by land routes, but it is required for vehicles arriving by boat.
4. In these European countries, the CPD is required only for certain categories of vehicles. The CPD is not required in these countries for private cars.
"

The AIT (list of required) CPD countries relies on information sharing among the national auto clubs who are authorized to issue/ administer the CPD on behalf of AIT. The information shared in turn depends on (changes in) national legislation, and like everything else, on the actual practice of border/ customs authorities.

Both the Swiss auto club (TCH) and German auto club (ADAC) have attempted such maps, always with the caveat that they are not guaranteed, and "based on best available information," e.g.

ADAC Reise & Freizeit - Carnet de Passages

"The information has been compiled with great care. For completeness and accuracy, no warranty can be accepted. Please inquire contact the relevant embassy or consulate to establish if existing (Import) prohibitions and restrictions."

That's why there's the HUBB and a hundred other forums to crowd source updates, and to provide endless discussion of accuracy
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  #7  
Old 26 May 2013
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When you just look what for experiences the Hubb Users had, then you can state soon that there is no carnet needed for africa (watching http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...tenere-64769-3).

But just because some did it without, is that correct?

This will mislead the reader i guess.

To a high percentage the guys on the boarders don`t know exactly what to do with us travelers and our papers. You can use the carnet where it is not allowed. Or not using it in these countrys where you have to.

Always is there the chance that you meet a guy, who know what is currently legal in his country.

That information our automobile clubs international has - are the most valid ones we can get.

Surfy
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  #8  
Old 27 May 2013
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I think I saw a bit of a similar map in German ADAC´s webpage a few years ago. And if they just ask this information from their counterparts in South America, then sure there might be some countries, where it is officially “recommended”, even though not really needed. Note, that that´s not the same as “obligatory”.

Another problem with any map is that the situation is ever-changing – I went to Oz five years ago, and used the carnet, because I had one, but it was not mandatory to have it for Oz. Not too long after my trip it changed, and now it is mandatory.
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  #9  
Old 27 May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CourtFisher View Post
Of course it's misleading, and always has been.


...snip....


That's why there's the HUBB and a hundred other forums to crowd source updates, and to provide endless discussion of accuracy
Yeh, lots of fun . No wonder they put these huge health warnings on stuff, when they print so much rubbish.

Summary so far is the map is inaccurate for the whole of the Americas, the whole of Africa, Japan, Malaysia and Nepal and correct for Australia.

In my travels I've found customs and immigration officers, including and particularly in Africa, to be well up on their rules and regulations. But hey ho, I know jack.

That situations change is reasonable and the way of the world and hence Wikis/country profiles can be updated accordingly. To blindly assume, like another poster on this thread, that just because others haven't followed the alleged "rules", they either cheated (bribed?) corrupt officials or hoodwinked stupid ones is quite arrogant/foolish, in my very humble opinion. Then again, deliberate repeating myself, I know jack.
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  #10  
Old 31 May 2013
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another nail in the coffin of the useless map..

NZ is possible without CdP

Yes you can enter NZ without a Carnet, You ask for a "DEED OF UNDERTAKING" In respect of motor vehicles imported under concession 80 part 2 of the Tariff act 1988

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...la-to-nz-63761
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  #11  
Old 13 Jun 2013
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Now Isaac has finished his Africa-Roundtrip (at least the part in africa) - without a carnet.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...tenere-64769-2

He has ride a bike.

Is this valid for bikes and cars? That is not the only statement who implicate - that the handling between bikes and cars are different:


Quote:
Originally Posted by BikingMarco View Post
...just over a year ago a friend and myself did East Africa on our bikes. It's not just Egypt but also Ethiopia and Sudan who insisted on having a Carnet on the border. Fortunately we had one. Others didn't. And couldn't cross...

All other countries between South Africa and the Ethiopian border will issue a Temporary Import Permit and you don't need a Carnet when on a motorbike. Other travelers we met came from Spain all through West Africa, South Africa and into Kenya without having a Carnet. However, they had to DHL one in from Spain in order to be allowed into Ethiopia.
Surfy
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