Hi, I'm trying to pull together a presentation on the benefits and problems of motorcycle touring in a group size of around 6. I'm not particularly interested in groups run by commercial companies but would still appreciate any feedback from leaders or participants of those tours.
What I want to focus on is groups of friends, forum buddies who come together once a year for a 2 to 3 week tour.
How do you decide who will "lead"?, how do yo resolve any issues?, does the group stay together?, what winds you up?, do you bite your lip or let rip? What are the benefits?
Let me know how the tour went for you.
Thanks

http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...-dynamics.html

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Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

I have a group I ride with regularly, but for twice or three times a year, we do a wandering road trip
Always a different leader, who also books the night stops etc. Time on road varies subject to the trip & time of the year.
Our key to success is to keep the group under 12 bikes & NO WOMEN

We ride with our gals regularly, but for these boys rides, it removes certain parameters of the daily grind, without the need to be chastised & beaten by our better halves

No clashes or arguments, but a lot of piss taking if you get us lost
I think the key ingredient David, is to choose wisely who can go the distance & handle the heat

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My memory is becoming that good, I should be able to organise my own surprise party soon

I wonder how common a thing it would be to find groups of 6 or so bikers who tour together on an annual basis? I know of a lot of friends who travel in twos or threes each year, but bigger groups tend to require more advance planning : the only exceptions being the big bike runs/rallies or pilgrimages to annual bike festivals. It's hardly 'adventure travel' or even true touring.

We have built up a largish group of American and Canadian friends with whom we have ridden Route 66 a number of times. One of the best things about that rally was that the main group of 40-odd bikes used to very quickly break down into smaller groups of 5 or 6, crossing paths with each other every 100 miles or so and meeting round the poolside in the evenings to compare notes. Good friendships have been formed that way and many of us have ridden with each other on other tours since.

The thing about a group of 6 or more is that you do need a leader to take overall responsibility: at the very least, someone to draft a daily itinerary and make any necessary bookings. This sort of riding won't appeal to everyone. On the one hand, the detailed planning and 'safety in numbers' may encourage less adventurous or inexperienced riders to broaden their horizons, but on the other it is more difficult to be spontaneous or to detour from the itinerary. It can be difficult too, even with friends who know each other well. The more people you have in the group, the more likely you are to have issues over riding styles, speeds, distances, rest stops, accommodation, and all the rest ... If you sign up to join one of these 'larger' groups of friends, you have accept that the success of the trip is going to depend, to a greater or lesser extent, on compromise.

When we ride with our American friends, it's because we have travelled to see them. Yes, it's fun to go on a bit of a road trip, but the motorcycling is incidental. When we tour, we prefer to travel as a couple, setting out an overall goal, then riding as many miles as we want to and taking whatever accommodation is available at the end of the day.

It's a tricky thing. Over the last 12 years or so, our group has only had two leaders. It's a big job so the guy that does it has to be: 1. really GOOD AT IT
2. Really like it ... and everyone has to like and RESPECT him.

We started out as a merging of 3 clubs kind of into one. 50 guys or so to start, but really only about 25 active riders with typically about 6 to 12 guys on each ride. We do about 10 rides a year. Most are 3 to 4 day rides, with a couple week long rides. Some years, a two/three week "vacation" ride. Some multi state or to Mexico. One small group of our guys flew to Chile and rented bikes. A total disaster, one guy nearly died when he hit a Huanaco at 60 mph.

I led one of the "big" Rides, 21 days, leading 16 members from San Francisco to Copper Canyon via Baja and all over Mexico and back. Since the group was SO BIG ... we split it in two. 8 in each group, on a slightly staggered schedule. We all met up in Mexico.

If 16 guys were to show up at a little Cafe in Mexico, it would take you 3 hours to get lunch. Motels, same thing. NO way can one small place handle that many. Small is best. We barely squeezed in my group of 8 and got them fed in reasonable time. No one is in a hurry in Mexico. Hotels must be chosen carefully. Some real flea bag joints.

Returning to the USA, the two groups broke into smaller sub groups and all headed home in different directions, some via dirt, some highway. Some got lost. That was the small group of 3 I led!

But the ride down with my 8 riders went really well. We all knew each other as we ride ALL YEAR together, doing thousands of miles. Years and years of this.

But most of our California rides are small groups, 6 to 10 guys, 3-4 day weekend, 250 to 400 mile days. Very fast paced. Experts only. Dirt, Street and everything in between. I don't lead the monthly rides. Too hard. You have to be a really good navigator/route planner .. I'm not. But I know Mexico and speak Espanol, so was recruited for that one only. No one died.

Getting along is sometimes tough. Things come up. Usually around Motel or Restaurant choices or splitting checks. Money.

But mostly it goes OK. Some members come on poorly prepared bikes which can slow things down. Sometimes Police are involved ... but we have two cops in the group ... so sometimes they bail us out of trouble. (but not always).

Group dynamics are tough. With strong personalities it's truly a challenge to keep focused on the ride and keep everyone happy. But overall, we've done pretty well and are mostly still friends but not everyone is still around. Our group is fading but lasted nearly 15 years. A good run, I'd say.

In foreign countries I CANNOT recommend group travel. When with your group, you take in little of surroundings and have only superficial interaction with locals. We fall into our own world. Blocking out everyone else.

But our guys did pretty good in Mexico, breaking into small one to three man groups to explore or take a tour or just walk around. But once the big group is together ... we all become self absorbed ugly Americans. Sad but true.
Tends to happen with most groups, regardless of nationalities.

But we do try to be good ambassadors for riders and for our fellow countrymen when abroad. I've seen worse.

The obvious benefit is having company wherever you are and having assistance if needed. Being in a group is also a big security blanket for those who are a bit unsure of riding or travelling.
If you have a good group, it can be a great laugh too. If you're lucky enough to find a good dynamic, it can be such great fun.. I can see why many people do it.


The downsides are the everyday logistics. Everything takes six times longer and it can be like trying to herd cats.

Filling your tank can take half an hour as some people need to pee, one guy has lost a glove, someone want's to re-pack their luggage and one dude is hungry and will only eat Brand X sandwiches so go wandering looking for one. Then there is trying to get the gang moving in the morning with six different sleeping habits, breakfast requirements and packing speeds. If you wake up at 7am and are packed to go at 8am, it can be tiresome to be waiting around in your bike gear until 11am when the last guy is still looking for his toothbrush.

Personally, I prefer a group or 2-4. It doesn't feel like a convoy and you can still split off in two groups if required. Someone can also go solo with the other three still in a decent sizes group.


The trick is finding people on similar sizes bikes, with the same kind of sleeping arrangements, budgets etc. If you're riding a DRZ with knobblies and carry all your luggage in a small roll bag and live off $10 a day then you're unlikely to be compatible with someone with a over-loaded GS who needs a hotel every night..

If you're resolved to travelling in a group then I think the best solution is to agree on a meeting spot everyday where you can all meet up to pitch camp and share a together. That way if people go off solo it's not a problem.

And EVERY bike/rider should have the gear and information necessary to go solo even if they never do.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

There are several ADV ralleys here every year. If you could go to one and participate in the organized rides, you'd see many faces of group dynamics

Only ever done one trip like that and the mental scars are still vivid. Never again. It would be quicker walking. I did a few multi bike (30-40) Eurotrips in the late 70's but with those we had fixed start and finish points for each day and that was it. Between the two you were encouraged to ride on your own or in a small group (2/3/4 bikes). That worked ok but even with a small group there's early risers vs late risers, aggressive vs timid riders, leaders / followers, non stop vs stop frequently types, military precision vs laid back personalities etc. Get a bad mix of those alternatives and you might as well go off on your own. I once did a multi bike trip to Corsica with someone who tailgated all the time and took friendly advice badly. Waiting for the inevitable didn't make for a relaxing time.

So, whatever systems are available for controlling large groups (second man dropoff, radio links, cattle prods etc) will sail into the future without me. Any ride large enough to need controlling like that will not see me participating (and probably the better for it ).

Going back to David's original post, even six bikes is going to be tricky unless someone is accepted as being in charge (and then it runs the risk of jailer vs prisoner syndrome). With commercial tours that division is easy to understand but with a group of nominally equal friends it can become tricky and quickly divisive - particularly if natural leader personality types clash.

Six bikes riding together on the road is not a good mix (particularly if it's a busy route) imho. The further back you are in the group the harder you have to ride to keep up if there's much overtaking to be done and generally the more timid riders tend to gravitate to the back. They then either ride beyond their comfort zone or fall further and further behind. Both alternatives lead to complaints, then bad feelings and then a decision to go it alone if nothing changes. Put the slowest rider in the front doesn't really help as you end up with complaints about how timid they are, ridicule etc. I've had that happen with a three bike group so unless you've been riding together for long enough (years or even decades) to know each other well it's close to a certainty with six.

Most of my riding these days is either done solo or with one or two other bikes as larger groups travelling as one batch take away much of the pleasure. In the autumn I'm doing there and back again across the US with a long time riding friend - just two bikes and 3 or 4 people. He reminded me a month or so ago that this year is the 45th anniversary of our first bike trip together and even after all that time we still have the odd niggle.

These guys manage quite well.
Big Trail Bike Club.
The so-called drop off system (second man dropoff) mentioned above is used.

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Dave

I attended one of their events a long time ago (late 90s?) in Wales. Of the 10 or so "alleged big trail bike riders" who turned up, 2 were on bikes (both newbies: me and a n other) and the rest in cars, some towing caravans. No, it wasn't advertised as a "BTBC show us yer car and caravan" event....

Maybe that's how they manage so well. They drive in a convoy of cars/caravans...

(I never went again. )

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Brighty's website: TheBrightStuffDotCom

CURRENT RR WITH REGULAR UPDATES: The Wife Takes on Chlamydia: A South American Retrospective

My large group experience only applies to four wheels not two, but I think the same problems present themselves insofar as a clash of expectations and personalities. Touring Ted hits upon this quite well and recognise a lot of his observations.

To add, my personal experience is that the wannabe alpha male leaders are to be avoided at all costs. The sort of folk who assume 'leadship' roles not because they are good at it or have the requisite experience or can command the natural respect of the group, but because they just want to be top dog.....at all costs.

Seriously, the moment someone starts to display these traits you need to make a tough decision of heading off and doing your own thing or putting said alpha male back in his box or even better, out of the group. These are the kind of folk who will always be throwing rocks from the side, unable to admit when they are wrong and more then happy to take the credit for anything when it goes right. They are unable to accept that someone else may have a good idea/more experience/be more popular then them. These people are kryptonite to any kid of group cohesion.

Very different from this decade.

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Dave

Some good points there Fitz
A truly sociopathic Fascistic leader should be avoided. But hopefully your group leader is well vetted before assuming leadership.

On UNI Mog Caravans I can imagine serious snipping and whinging due to pure boredom from sitting in a metal box all day. Bike groups have more fun, ride great roads fast and stay more occupied racing each other. In the evenings there are always tales to tell over drinks and recount the day. :

Authoritarian is bad but, IMO, groups do need a strong, smart leader. We may not like our Marine drill sargent either! Leaders can never please everyone every time. What's nearly as bad as a bent leader is a leaderless group. Been there! Not good.

Some personality traits may not appear until STRESS enters the dynamic or someone challenges the leader or some other point of conflict crops up. In this, Fitz has it right. Bail out ASAP.

Group meetings and discussion are important, keeps group on the same page and reasonably happy. Important to air grievances and work things out sooner rather than later. It's called democracy, and unlike internet forums, EVERYONE has an equal voice and the group can DEPOSE the leader at any time. (their choice!)
In rare circumstances we've had riders leave the ride. Usually on good terms.

Our group leader is an impeccable planner, excellent navigator and personally KNOWS the routes by memory. Knows ride times/miles, Motels, knows back roads, dirt roads and alternate routes. 20 years doing California makes this possible. A good leader PRE RIDES the route. Documents everything and shares info with group. MAPS! It's a thankless, unpaid job, getting only the odd pint sent his way.

Nice variety on this dirt/street mix: DR650's, KLR's, R1200GS, 955i Tiger, DRZ400, KTM 990/950, KTM 640, XR650L and a few odd others.

Interesting thread.

Did I miss the advantages of group travel in amongst the need to form a committee , depose the despotic leader , ride in traffic all the time, never see anything no one in the group has seen before and defend my position in a race?





I'll own up. If I wanted to travel slowly with other people I'd take a bus. It's probably best for everyone that I don't.

Andy

I think I've been lucky. Generally ride with 1 or 2 others only. Not had a serious issue in a decade of trips and still ride with them all.

On the basis that every group DOES have a muppet in it I'm a bit concerned that means its me ;-)


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