There are no countries not guilty of those crimes !!

The US is probably the biggest criminal invading country in the world and Britain has a DREADFUL history of rape, murder and pilage throughout its colonies. Would you avoid Spain because it was the last country to abolish slavery or maybe avoid France because it blows up pacific islands with Nuclear weapons ?

The western countries are far better at putting a spin on it all aren't they ! The west murder with a smile and handshake.

Anyway, I don't visit a country to see its polititians, government and generals... I go to see the REAL people who generally never represent their government, especially in the 3rd world.

Governments, borders and politics are best left ignored when travelling. Just my 0.2p worth.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Bravo! Well said Ted ..
.

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Right Way Round ...

I agree Ted, "Politics" is a dirty word and best never mentioned. I even left this subject alone when I was in the US, even though I have strong thoughts on their foreign policies.

Best to keep a low profile, don't mention the war and just interact with the locals as best you can and of course buy off the street vendors where ever possible so the money goes to the right place.

btw - I am probably guilty of asking for a and expecting it within a reasonable amount of time, after all, I am the customer

Cheers
TS

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www.travellingstrom.com

"Reasonable amount of time" is a cultural construction, in the ordering of as in all else. In Latin America I expect service which I'd consider insulting in North America (or Australia), because that's what local culture dictates. When they serve my slowly, they are treating me like the customer. They just define this differently.

That doesn't mean I don't wish they'd hurry the hell up; it means I'm somewhat obligated to be patient as a sign of respect for local culture.

But then again, I like to talk politics wherever I go. I've had some fun times talking about American interventionist tendencies, for example, in Muslim countries as well as throughout the places throughout Latin America which have suffered mightily due to USA support for all sorts of abusive people and policies. I believe it's possible to have these discussions respectfully, and I always learn from them. It's my hope that so do the people to whom I talk. Sometimes they paint a far more favorable picture of my country's history than I do myself.

Mark

I will not visit Israel until I can visit Palestine. Call it politics if you will, but a person has to have some standards, otherwise who are you?

One thing I've found is that golbal 'politics' is too polarised to be reliable. Whaty I mean is that every country thinks their neighbours are a bunch of b*£$ards and the further two countries are apart generally the more distorted their views of what it is actually like.

In Europe Gengis Khan is a muderous bandit who pilaged half the world, in Central Asia he is a heroic leader that united the warring factions and created an iimmense economical power.

My advice would be open your mind and adjust or completely remove your expectations. I had been told terribel things about Albania before I went in, expected the worst, had a run in with the Mafia and they ended up buying me dinner and we all got wasted on the local spirit. Had I expected a eurpoena well served holdiay experience I would have come away a bit shocked, instead I loved the place.

In response to the earlier point 'surprised to see the US grouped in with the Stans I would feel a hell of a lot safer in central asia than in North America - not from fear of the government buit fear of the general gun-toting population robbing me. A lot of places that get a bad rap in the west get it because the government has an iron grip on the population. This in turn means the population are unlikely to give you any crap. Plus outside of 'westernised' countries life may be cheap but nearly everyone has the kindess of strangers that we seem to have lost.

That said I have some limits and the following places are in my 'hopefully they will calm down so I can go' list: Sudan, Somalia, North Columbia (Darien Gap area), Afghansitan and Iraq. Over-riding principle for me is live and let live with customs and politics but don't get yourself killed.

why do you travel? for changing the world or seeing the real live over there?
every country on the planet has "dark side". i just travel to see the real live, meet the locals. i am trying to act like a traveller and not a politician.

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ozhan u.
website under construction

...So another thinly veiled attempt at trolling. Nice.

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West Virginia University 2006
Beta Theta Pi - Beta Psi
Ride Report: TAT...and Beyond

Spot on

I agree with what seems to be the general concensus on here: travelling is about seeing people and places not governments.

This is no truer than when you go to a place that might be on the UK FCO avoid list and find the most welcoming people imaginable.

Your journey, provided it is made in a manner respectful of those you visit, will have a positive impact on locals be it financially or personally, by meeting a new person from another background.

Surely, that is a good thing...

In other words:
No, a country's regime will not affect my decision to visit, unless I feel it poses too great a risk to our safety.

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Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

As expected, some individuals make assumptions about my personal views. Naughty.

I myself have visited countries which I think are dodgy, and I wondered how others squared their conscience. Nobody should be surprised about the inclusion of the US as dodgy. I neednt spell out what the US has done, for many years. The UK used to be as bad , but much less now, apart from dodgy arms deals.Those who say politics doesnt matter - tell that to those who are victims of the above dodgy countries. Or try riding through Afghanistan, and tell me that you're not into politics; believe me, you soon will be. Someone once said "You may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you". But I didnt pose the question for political reasons, but for reasons of bike travel and your conscience. We do visit dodgy countries, so it's worth discussing.

The ostrich who said this was trolling needs help and must get his act together.

I'm not surprised by your comment--very little that people say on the HUBB surprises me anymore--but I do find it ridiculous to equate the US with Libya, Syria, etc. You can talk about our horrible deeds all you want, but it is on a whole different level from most of the other countries referenced in your list.

Yup the US just does it on a grander scale.

I travel without real notice of local/international politics where-ever possible, it gives you the chance to see the country as defined by its people as opposed to defined by its politicians.

I dont talk about "your horrible deeds" and I'm not here to list in detail the human rights issues. I just ask you if a country's record influences your travel plans . You decide whats dodgy, not me. Its not a political forum. Stay on topic.

Stop dodging the question.Is there a place you wouldnt visit because of its record? If this isnt important, well just say so...

Jeez, it's like pulling teeth.

The country's human rights record does not influence my travel decisions unless it would jeopardize my own safety. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to travel in my own country, or any country accessible by road from where I live. Every country has at some time had human rights violations. When the human rights violations are against my own kind (gay) then I will try to avoid those countries or the less tolerant parts of otherwise safe countries if I feel that my safety is seriously compromised.

The rationale is that I'm directly interacting, and spending money, with the people and not the governments. Generally speaking there are good people all over the world and they should not be punished for something their government, drug cartels, hate groups, etc, etc, are doing.

Boycotting governments = OK
Boycotting the people = harmful
...IMHO


...Michelle
www.scrabblebiker.com