I have to admit to stretching things a little bit, but one incident was a stretch too far.
Was going to buy a Swiss vehicle until I found out that Swiss law does not allow a vehicle out of the country (other than for a certain period and only provided insurance is current) and still retain valid registration and license plates. I was told the plates were fake and the documentation too but no problems since he would give me a receipt and a poder. Was a very expensive vehicle so I wanted to know how I could sell it on with just a poder. No problem I was told, I would get several poders with blank places for myself and any subsequent owners to fill out each time the vehicle changed hands.

As I said, a stretch too far.

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

I am a boomer. I feel that if you wish to forge documents or any other illegal activities in your fulfilling your quest for adventure, go ahead, I won't rat you out. I also won't bail you out. I have known people who looted burial grounds, sent the goods out of the country so they could be turned into bracelets, when caught, fined, deported, looked for sympathy. Its not a crime until you get caught, then everyone who follows is given a rough time. It only takes one policeman whose father was Finnish to give you a bad day..

xfiltrate your question has rather moved on and become more specific. To me the answer is "it depends". For the most part I believe Mark Manley's answer hits the spot. A "crime" is really only morally wrong if someone suffers.

Your point I think is that it could be yourself that suffers if you get it wrong. Travelling on forged ownership papers, driving licence or insurance could indeed get you into hot water. Police don't only work to extract money from us, they also have a role in stopping theft, terrorism, etc. If you have forged ID or driving licence and you get into an accident or are checked in a region where terrorism is a big risk you could be in big trouble.

Then again I see no problem making copies of genuine IDs, driving licences etc in case of corrupt cops threatening to confiscate them.

Good Morning Kazakhstan,

Des Senior, yes, damaging only oneself still damages someone.

Your second point is a good one. I carry a second wallet with a copy of my DL, passport, expired credit cards in my name and other innocuous identification like library cards, expired student IDs etc for the purpose of handing over in the event of attempted robbery or solicitation by an obviously corrupt official. And, I keep about $20.00 USD in that wallet. My plan is to hand over or drop or throw the decoy wallet and leave.

I would only hand over the original of my DL or passport in the confines of a secure location with other police monitoring, like at a border. I have shown the originals, but never handed them over.

I am not naive, I know there is corruption in every country, but I also know, as you have pointed, possible suspected terrorists in the area, that relying on forged documents might exacerbate the situation. Using forged documents might certainly be the cause of further detention and investigation.

And, if the forged document has to do with the motorcycle or TVIP (temporary vehicle import permit) it provides a loop hole for your insurance company that allows the company to legally deny paying bail, attorneys fees and damages to others. And, not having valid insurance absolutely risks hurting others and yourself.

A question - rosa and I will be riding 2 BMWs, from Spain to Latvia in 2018, and then would like to ride from Latvia to Kazakhstan and beyond, which months would have the best riding weather?

Thanks for your excellent comments.
xfiltrate

Hi again,

sure I dont expect all of you to agree with my way of doing things, you dont have to, its your journey and you have to be happy.

at Grumpy Geezer

... I think this policeman would just start laughing, , but dont know, I have never met him.

at Xfilterate

... do you really believe this? But I think this would be a different topic (thread) and not related to mc travel. Enjoy your journey to Eastern Europe and Asia.

All the best to you all with what ever paper you use, and thanks to all for the interesting answers, I will leave this thread now.

mika

It's all well and good xfiltrate to adopt a higher moral ground, and state that if I hurt myself that that is also damage to be eschewed/avoided.

However, I believe that there is far too much grey area and I basically adopt Mark Manley's approach to deciding whether to conform or not.

In addition, like Mika says, it is foolish to believe that governments have our best interests at heart when writing laws, or that government officials are always working in our best interest when attempting to enforce them.

To give you a couple of simple examples.

First, some - not all - countries require a rider/driver to present an IDP before being allowed to ride in that country. Usually, this is because the IDP has translation pages for different languages/scripts for countries where the average law enforcer would not be able to read the language of your home country (or state) licence. If this is the case, then it it is a good thing and I can see the benefits

However, whilst my home country licence lasts for 10 years and costs me $AUD140 an IDP lasts for only 1 year and costs $35 to renew. In order to obtain an IDP I simply present money and a passport photo that reasonably matches the photo on my licence - no ID checks or licence validity checks are required. In addition, the IDP fee is not paid to the Australian government but to my local automobile club

In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held.

As a second example, even more farcical than the first, I plan to ride in Sri Lanka in the very near future.

Sri Lanka has a unique requirement that states that not only do I have to have to carry my Australian licence, and an IDP, but that I also have to make a special trip to take my IDP to the local automobile club (AA) in Colombo and have them issue an "endorsement letter" for the princely sum of $US35 before I can legally drive in Sri Lanka.

What does this letter achieve - neither it, nor my IDP, have Sinhalese translations of my Australia license - in terms of helping a local policeman make road travel in Sri Lanka safer.

In both of the above examples the only people to benefit are the local automobile clubs - private businesses whose primary business is provision of roadside breakdown and repair services.

To suggest the purpose of requiring these documents is anything other than pure profit to the issuer is arrant nonsense (ok, I do also accept that maybe there was profit for the government official who legislated the above requirement in return for a bribe from the automobile clubs).

Would I feel morally guilty in forging documentation in the above circumstances? - absolutely not!

Would I perhaps have a fear about being caught for forging such documents? - maybe, and I may decide the risk/reward equation doesn't justify it.

I am sure there are many other similar examples that others have. I can go back over 40 years to when I wasted inordinate hours trying to get government officials to stamp my carnet OUT of a country when I wanted to leave. It's all very good for them to insist you can't bring your vehicle into the country without required documentation but where is the recipricocity when you need them to document your departure in order not to forfeiture a bond equivalent to more than the value of your vehicle.

In summary, is the law an ass? Answer, yes, quite often.

Should one feel morally guilty about treating it as an ass in these circumstances? Answer - No, never.

__________________
Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

Farqhuar wrote:

In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). In 2014 I spent 2 months riding around Indonesia and felt no qualms whatsoever in taking an old expired IDP and manually changing the date from 2011 to 2014. Who did it hurt, and how did it affect my ability to ride in a foreign country? The automobile club keeps no record of my applying for an IDP (not even issuing a receipt for the transaction). Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held.

Farqhuar, thank you for your comprehensive but misleading response to my - as you put it - "adopting the moral high ground".

Your statement that "Had I had an accident it would have made no difference to any insurance I held." is not only misleading but might inspire others to follow your example . So I will share what I know to be true.

If your comment relates to your group or individual health insurance, separate from your motorcycle insurance, you might be right, but if you are claiming that illegally operating your motorcycle by driving permit or TIVIP, makes no difference to your liability coverage for that motorcycle, please post here after you have had an accident and I am certain you will discover that your illegal operation of an insured motorcycle (as described) will release your insurance company from any liability. Or, just read your policy disclaimers generally found in very fine print.

Look, unless your damages have been paid or you have collected from your motorcycle insurance company, while operating your motorcycle illegally, after you have caused personal injury or substantial property damage please set the record straight. Insurance companies only insure legally operated motorcycles/vehicles. This is an irrefutable fact. I know it is very difficult for some to understand this, but it is fact.

It matters little to me that you attempt to belittle my desire to present the facts about forging documents related to the operation or title of motorcycles and you are able to tunnel vision yourself into some justification or another. The facts remain the same no matter what you believe. The problem is many will also believe you until they have an accident. This is very unfortunate.

xfiltrate

Hello


In Switzerland, it's a bit different from other countries.

The numberplate is personaly linked to the holder of the registration and proof of insurance(green card). Change of ownership of a vehicule = new numberplate.

There are no restrictions on leaving the country with a swiss registered vehicule.

BUT, if you want to have the numberplates , you have to pay for insurance(green card) and taxes. If you stop paying, the police comes to your home an takes the numberplates.
If your on the road, no problem, but when you return home, big problem.

When on a RTW, WITH original numberplates and paying insurace, all is legal but expensive (green card useless outside europe).
(Problem is when the vehicule needs to go to the road savety inspection but your on a RTW)

SO, almost all cars and some bikes send the numberplates home once they have left europe, to avoid paying for useless insurance.

Then they make their own numberplates, only recognizable to other Swiss.

THE PROBLEM is, then you are on the road illegally, if you have an accident, the insurance you have bought in the local country is invalid.

In africa probably not a problem, but in Australia, USA, Canada, some lawyer might find this to avoid his insurance company to pay for your accident.

sushi

__________________
My RTW:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrXt660ztenere

For my esteemed colleagues who believe they are above the law.

Sometimes they are!

https://youtu.be/xzah0ylNTdc

xfiltrate

Hello

FOX News...
Let's rename this thread to "alternativ documents".

sushi

__________________
My RTW:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrXt660ztenere

Or PTD.... "Post Truth Documents"


X: Do we know the status of the stunt rider's papers? Forged or real?


How about this video? Maybe this is why "adventure bikes" a la big KTM/BMW are getting more and more horsepower: to outrun the police if the bike has fake papers

__________________

TBS.com

Think you'd need "alternative" number plates if playing that game, preferably ones that belong to a "safety" camera van

I am impressed how clean and safe the highway was. Warning: DO NOT attempt this in Louisiana. The shoulders are bumpy and full of trash, the drivers do not drive well, very slow drivers have a habit of blocking both lanes, and planes will be called in to catch the perp. Almost no one gets away with a high speed chase, there are too many drunks on the road.