Catalans camp at voting sites-NY Times

[xfiltrate]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/w...eferendum.html

[xfiltrate]

https://apnews.com/5341651334024917a...-attack-voters



xfiltrate

[xfiltrate]

Catalonian referendum violence plunges EU into crisis as '90pc of voters back independence'

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


He was preaching to the choir!

xfiltrate

[PanEuropean]

Not much going on here, to be honest.

I've been in rural Catalonia for the last few days, and everything has been pretty peaceful. There was a gathering of sorts at the town hall last night (referendum night), it was very orderly.

I think that the "news machine" needs to be fed constantly, and all the videos that you might be seeing on various TV stations and news websites are all from the same protest event in the capital city, Barcelona.

Today - October 2 - things are totally normal.

Michael

[xfiltrate]

Catalonia LIVE vid: Thousands take to streets in MASS uprising to bring Spain to its knees | World | News | Express.co.uk

Will be speaking to my Spanish sister in law today who lives in Teruel - south of Catalonia - will give on the ground report soon. She is well connected.

xfiltrate

[xfiltrate]

Catalan referendum: Region's independence 'in matter of days' - BBC News

The word is - this is the biggest change for Barcelona since Franco and the Spanish Civil War, at least this is what the word on the streets is in Barcelona today!

Eat, Drink and Vivan Los Catalans ! I think?
xfiltrate

[Warin]

Originally Posted by xfiltrate

Region's independence 'in matter of days'

Nup.
Some group might 'claim' it. But practically .. what are they going to do? Establish a local police force, a local army and throw out the Spanish police and then the army ... don't think so.
The word 'treason' is still in use today. Would take a long while to separate any part of any established country. Look at East Timor.

[choutos]

And what is the Spanish government going to do? Beat them up forever? Send the army? against who, half the population?

[xfiltrate]

Good points being made here by my fellow Hubbers.

Time will tell, the EU seems to be "hands off" at least overtly.

Wonder what will happen to the 27 other EU countries - domino?

Eat, Drink and sometimes it is not all about futball!

xfiltrate

PERHAPS A FEW OF THE POLICE. FIREMEN, ARMY, BIG ETC ARE CATALAN SEPARATISTS....

[xfiltrate]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...e-beyond-spain



Bloomberg Business Week is one of the most respected news sites -

They are doing their homework . Domino?

xfiltrate

[xfiltrate]

Spaniards take to streets as Catalonia independence tensions rise | Reuters

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Mahatma Gandhi


EAT, DRINK AND LISTEN TO GANDHI
xfiltrate

[backofbeyond]

I've been sitting watching this from a couple of hundred miles the French side of the border for the last week - far enough away to hope for a bit more light than heat but close enough that it's still a kind of local issue and the tv pundits have been going through the same old "is this the end of Spain or the birth of a new era of democracy" discussion so many times I've started to watch the children's cartoons instead.

I have to say I'm not surprised that this has blown up the way it has. Since Europe was nailed together as a means of keeping France and Germany from each other's throats and we've started to get used to having this overarching European identity loom over us (Brits excepted) its gone some way to making national differences less visible. "Sub national" groups like the Catalans can now see themselves as viable within the euro umbrella. Madrid however obviously sees it differently.

My prediction is there'll be a few more bits for "freedom" from other disgruntled regional groupings with success /failure dependant more on political organisation than rational consideration. I've already seen "free Savoie from French imperialism" graffiti just up the road from here. Give it a few decades and Europe will be made up of 100 Luxembourgs rather than 20 Spains - maybe

[xfiltrate]

Originally Posted by backofbeyond

I've been sitting watching this from a couple of hundred miles the French side of the border for the last week - far enough away to hope for a bit more light than heat but close enough that it's still a kind of local issue and the tv pundits have been going through the same old "is this the end of Spain or the birth of a new era of democracy" discussion so many times I've started to watch the children's cartoons instead.

I have to say I'm not surprised that this has blown up the way it has. Since Europe was nailed together as a means of keeping France and Germany from each other's throats and we've started to get used to having this overarching European identity loom over us (Brits excepted) its gone some way to making national differences less visible. "Sub national" groups like the Catalans can now see themselves as viable within the euro umbrella. Madrid however obviously sees it differently.

My prediction is there'll be a few more bits for "freedom" from other disgruntled regional groupings with success /failure dependant more on political organisation than rational consideration. I've already seen "free Savoie from French imperialism" graffiti just up the road from here. Give it a few decades and Europe will be made up of 100 Luxembourgs rather than 20 Spains - maybe

Yes, we (at the HUBB) are the rare ones who have the advantage of the reading the international press and reading the astute observations from fellow over landers like the above quote from backofbeyond.

Who, from a localized position yet far enough away, is somehow mystically able to determine the difference between reality and cartoons,

I have had the luck to have had personal conversations with backofbeyond and know him to be an accurate observer of the realities we face if we would only look. He does look, and that makes him someone I do look up to.

As for his message, I would much like to hear more about Savole and French imperialism - without better defining his references, I fear he falls into the talking head trap of the armchair pundits, and fails.

Does he mean:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoie
Perhaps we will never know -

But if I know backofbeyond ... he will continue to engage and enlighten us.

xfiltrate

[xfiltrate]

One: the party promoting Cataluña's independence might/does not have enough votes in Parliament, if the vote ever comes to the floor, for independence.

Two: a referendum vote is quite different from a Parliamentary vote and although the majority of the referendum vote -voted independence, this was not a Parliamentary vote, that would be recognized by Spain.

Three: at least one major bank and two large corporations have/are pulling out of Cataluña because of the move toward independence, this might be a trend.

Four: Cataluña based corporations fear boycotts of their products and services from the rest of Spain/Europe if independence is achieved.

Five: minimum/needed government infrastructure/services might not be in place or possible after independence. Even former leaders who called for independence five years ago doubt Cataluñas' ability go independent without major ... major problems - a la Cervantes' Don Quijote.

six: the government of Spain, for better or worst, will not easily let go of Cataluña, and will employ force if necessary.

My thoughts, Spanish life goes on - the Spanish are survivors and generally don't sweat the small stuff and there exists only a small chance for independence,

xfiltrate

[backofbeyond]

Originally Posted by xfiltrate

As for his message, I would much like to hear more about Savole and French imperialism - without better defining his references, I fear he falls into the talking head trap of the armchair pundits, and fails.

Does he mean:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoie
Perhaps we will never know -


xfiltrate

Yes I did mean Savoie (or Savoy depending on who's doing the spelling). From where I'm sitting in the French Alps, as I mentioned it's about 200 miles (give or take) to the Spanish / Catalunyan border and I've been watching the tv coverage of the pro / anti separatist rallies and listening to the talking head pundits giving their assessment of what's going on, who's going to do what and when and how it's all going to work out. As I don't have any personal connection to the area I don't really have a dog in the fight and all I can do is hope it all works itself out peacefully.

My previous posting though was based on the observation that there are a lot of separatist movements in Europe. Some, like the Catalans, Scotland etc, are high profile and on their day with a bit of charismatic leadership the go / stay decision could go either way. Others (Belgium, Ireland, Italy) are like smoking volcanoes, quiet for the moment but given the right conditions could blow up and still others don't amount to much more than localised grumbling.

About 100 miles the other way from where I am the Italian Northern League have been talking about dumping the "backward" south and going it alone, although over the last few years they seem to have shifted slightly into a more "mainstream" political party and cut back on the secessionist rhetoric.

50 miles north of here is Chambery, the city that would become the capital of free Savoie if the graffiti I see in the area ever came to pass. Rather than type it all out here's a link to basic info about the Savoy and the League:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy

As things stand there doesn't look like much chance of Savoie joining the EU as a new member state any time soon but many of what are now regions of EU countries existed independently in the past and some want to redraw the boundaries again. Further to my original somewhat tongue in cheek suggestion of the EU ending up as 100 Luxembourgs here's a link to a map of what things could look like if all the euro secessionist movements got their way:

Map shows how Europe would look if every separatist movement got their wish* | Daily Mail Online

I suspect there will be politicians all over Europe looking closely at the way events in Barcelona play out, what techniques have been employed on either side and what lessons can be applied to their particular circumstances. If the UK ones are not they certainly should be as Scotland looks like it will be back on the agenda in a few years. I'm just hoping Occitania doesn't come to pass as it's taken me long enough to fumble my way through French and having to lean Oc might be the straw that broke the camels back.