Thanks SK. I'm not actually looking for help or advice, I'm raising an issue. Your comment about most people not going abroad -I'd say that only applies to the US, where very few actually have a passport, and who view the world with suspicion. Your comment about many in the US only travelling with the military bears that out, and says much.

I'd say that most Europeans have a passport and travel.

Your solution about smaller bikes is a good one. Reducing involvement in the ratrace or consumerism is appropriate too. You might care to read a book by Thorstein Veblen about conspicuous consumerism.

I think your somewhat prone to making glib generalizations and denigrating comments regarding stuff you don't appear to know much about--for example, who travels and who doesn't, how much money any of us have, used to have, or will have, what kinds of places are mere "unstable nightmares." And FWIW, there sure appear to be more people traveling long distances on motorbikes than ever before....despite your claim that we can't and won't. So what was your point again?

The price of gas? Here's the first Google result for the USA: InflationData: Gasoline Inflation . I'll leave it to you to show results for other places.

Long distance travelers? Well, there sure are a lot of books, websites, videos and (shudder) television shows these days. What do you make of that? Are they all pretenders?

But....When I first traveled in Africa for 7 months 20 years ago I saw not a single overland rider. I've now been going to West Africa for about ten years straight, and whereas I used to see one Western overlander per month I now see one per day in the same areas. When I first drove the pipeline Haul Road to Deadhorse I saw not a single rider in four days --and I didn't see any up towards Inuvik either. Now there's a constant stream of them through my hometown, coming and going, and the Alaskan roads are full of overlanders. Same with South and Central America, although I've got less basis for comparison: hundreds per year (as best I could figure) from North America to Ushuaia.

A lot of this is driven by the fact that the demographic--middle-aged and up--is relatively flush with cash and freedom, notwithstanding your statements to the contrary. Ted Simon, like me, may just be feeling a bit weary, having taken a lot of long trips. That's fine, but there are a hundred where there once was only Ted. That's not an indication that overland riders are staying home, clinging to their few remaining coins.

On the other hand, you know what they say about opinions....and that's at least doubly true with stuff, like this post, written late at night.

Mark

Actually, I think it's you who offer "glib and denigrating "comment and verbal flatulence since you feel free to offer such personal comment to me. And I gave no such denigrating comment. As for who has passports/travels and who does not, it's in the statistics. It's a fact not a criticism. You check it out. And SK agrees -read his post. You're clearly defensive and I understand that, and why. It's OK.

Most of what I said IS one opinion about the possible future - I hope I'm wrong. I hoped you'd see that it's mostly opinion without spelling it out to you. Sigh. I'm quite happy to read other points of view - that's fine by me. I want to read what others think. I'm relaxed if that view is different from mine. It could be that you're unhappy with differing ideas/opinions. My friendly advice to you is don't take general comment so personally.

You present yourself as an old Africa hand. I said Africa was a changing nightmare and you 'disagreed'. Zimbabwe, Uganda, Congo, Mali, Mauritania, Libya, Algeria, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda, Angola, Nigeria, Kenya, Somalia to name but a few have all seen recent serious conflict. I suggest that this is a nightmare, especially for the people there. It is also a problem for a traveller. Not impossible, but a problem. Until you show me different, I'll stand by that.

I'm pleased to read the relevant opinions you gave when you got to the point. That's what I hoped some people would do. That is, discuss the issue without beginning as you did with a spoiler.

Caminando, I can see where you are coming from, There are many countries that I would like to travel to but due to the fact I hate paperwork and the thought of actually paying and form filling for visas just puts me off. any motorcycle travel on your own bike will be expensive, even in the 80's when I used a T140 Bonneville you had to make sure you started the trip on new tyres, or ones that you had put little mileage on, about 3 years ago I 'garaged' my R80gs as it was not as practical as other bikes I have and that can be used for trips. I would be quite happy to use either my ybr125 or Royal Enfield.recent trips I have done have been to India(yes I know I needed a visa!) and hired a bike, and also rented a bike(!) in Thailand.
Unless you have pretty much unlimited time, you also have the constraints of how far you can get in say 2-3 weeks especially on a small bike.
The last couple of years at the Isle of Man TT I have used either my 125 or in the case of this year the Enfield and I can honestly say that I have enjoyed the Island much more from the seat of a smaller bike.

__________________
'He who laughs last, was too slow to get the joke'
Never confuse the map with the journey.

Thanks Palace

You make some good points IMO especially about the smaller bike and the Enfield, and about the changing problems of travel on a bike. And you actually garaged your GS, which I find hard/impossible to do with my similar bike.

Yes travel can be expensive, especially on fuel. It's about finding the money and for some/many, that's not easy.

Caminando - there's a lot of food for thought in your original post and much of it has been on my mind in recent years as well. What I have been trying to do is distinguish between signal and noise when it comes to travel and bike travel in particular. The signal is what's actually happening in the world that affects my ability or desire to travel with the noise representing my own personal circumstances. For example, too many years of long queues, aggressive officials, petty restrictions, decreasing value for money and many other factors have all combined to put me off air travel. I really don't enjoy it anymore. My 22yr old son however wouldn't agree with any of that list and uses Easy Jet / Ryan Air to flit round Europe on a whim like they were his own personal airlines. He, and most of his peer group, enjoys it. I used to but no longer do. It's me that's changed and my personal noise is drowning out the signal that air travel is probably cheaper, easier, safer and more commonplace than its ever been.

It's much the same with bike travel. I did my first long distance bike trip in 1970 so it's probably not surprising that I've changed somewhat in the meantime. I've been bike traveling ever since and that interest has remained a little bit of a constant while everything else has changed around it. I'm older (obviously), wealthier (not so obvious but a combination of luck and judgment has kept me level with my peer group) and subject to an accumulation of biases and prejudices that creep up on you over that length of time. I also have to have accumulated numerous commitments and responsibilities that I didn't have when I first started.

All of these have to be juggled and weighed when I start planning any sort of trip. Twice in recent years substantial bike trips have been canceled at reasonably short notice because of fiscal prudence. There was enough money available if the future went well but not if our circumstances took an unforeseen downturn so I decided that I couldn't justify the expenditure. All of this, the state of my health, bank balance, predicted level of homesickness, my wife having to take up the slack while I'm away or even can I be bothered with it all is just noise in the system. It's personal to me and nothing to do with the state of the wider world and external problems such whether I can get a Sudan visa or even whether I should use a pizza delivery bike or a GS1200. Back when I first started these decisions were everything. We'd spend weeks pouring over maps on the floor or pre booking campsites by letter. Now I hardly glance at a map.

That's the reason I've only been to Ripley once (and then only for one night) - the corporate world that's become "adventure motorcycling" doesn't interest me. I've no interest in the latest overhyped megatourer or the contents of the TouraTech catalogue. What I've always enjoyed is the actual touring whether it's sunken lanes in Devon or shipwrecks in Mauritania. It's kind of fortunate really that I'm now old enough and experienced enough to be able to decide for myself whether a piece of kit is right for me and happily ignore opinions to the contrary.

Anyway, the point of all of this was to say that I'm not sure that we're in any sort of new era or difficult times for bike travel. Certainly fuel costs have gone through the roof here in recent years but they did back in 73/74 and I managed to cope then. Borders come and go although I would admit that Africa at the moment does seem to have more no go zones than the average over the last few decades. That may not be the case in ten years time although (depending on how old you are) that may not be much personal comfort. For me though, for the last 25yrs or so, its been personal circumstances, relationships and commitments that have governed where I go or whether I go at all.

Many thanks for your detailed and very thoughtful post. Much of it I recognise and share.

I do think that these are issues that affect, or will affect most of us. I fully admit that when younger, I paid little heed to the thought of being older.

I was interested too, in people's response to this, if any. It's actually about keeping on riding, and adapting to changing circumstances. However, like Ogri, "I've still got my bike"!

Beyond agreement or disagreement, I like your post. It's thought-provoking, honest and respectful; some may not agree, as said, but that's a different issue. It's a good starting point to hear opinions. Some are really nice to read. It comes to my mind Clifford T. Ward's song "Thoughts from Abroad": [I've been reading Browning, Keats and William Wordsworth], Well I like the words they use, and I like the way they use them.

I agree with many points and see no contradictions between what you stated and what others said against. I tend to position myself a lot, but here I cannot see a clear statement 100% right, but many nuances.

Not the big issue discussed here, but I'm sure I profoundly dislike the BMW GS+Touratech+Sunday coffee life-style. I may not go anywhere far, but I prefer that to be a pretender.

Esteban

Right, I've had a couple of glasses of red so I'm hoping what I say makes sense.

I agree with what a lot of the OP says. It's become something of an obsession here. Not at retiring age yet but seriously looking forward to being able to get away more. We've noticed how much the cost of everything has increased over the last few years. Increased costs at home have meant there is now much less 'disposable income' to spend on breaks and holidays. Fuel costs are a major issue making it more expensive to go any distance on our old airhead than use our modern diesel car.

Dreams of 4/5 star hotels on our bike tours are just that (dreams) so we're looking at ways of making camping more comfortable (we like camping but unless you do it a lot it takes a while to get used to it).

We don't have as much opportunity for hopping on a cheap Ryan air/Flybe as people living in the UK but we do have the advantage of being only a few hours from Biarritz, the Pyrenees, Barcelona, Marseille etc. which is a big plus, however the prices for hotels and food in big cities is generally beyond our means.

I enjoy meeting up and riding with other adventure bikers but personally can't bear standing around all day with the express purpose of talking about bikes, so avoid the Ripley and Ace cafe stuff as much as I can. I'm also stongly anti farkles - in my book it's either essential or a waste of money

No no no! It's: "I've still got me bike"!
And a brilliant summing-up it is.

Like BoB above, I often give thought to all the different opinions and outlooks and ideas featured all over the HUBB, but usually I can't relate to many of them.
And I wonder why.
In the end I think it's mainly down to personal circumstances, your 'baggage' or experiences and influences from the past.
The possibility of being influenced by individuals isn't often mentioned. We've had Ted Simon and Charlie&Ewan brought into posts above, which indicates to me that probably they are amongst the people with the biggest influences at the moment, albeit at opposite ends of the spectrum I think.

On the other hand, how many members of these forums would say their parents have influenced them insofar as riding motorbikes is concerned?
My dad, a lifetime rider (mainly sidecars 1960s to 80s, bicycles before) is still a big influence for me I think, which might put me in a minority. And maybe is why I don't relate to a lot of what is on the HUBB. But notwithstanding that, these forums are a big resource for me and I read a huge amount of what gets posted, and enjoy it all and take note.
There are as many different views about riding a motorbike across continents as there are people doing it. And it will always be so, I think.

On the question of where we are now and what the future holds, it looks to me as though the popularity of riding off into the sunset continues to increase or at least remains steady. The changing stability of borders and countries has always been a factor and always will be. Ditto personal spending power. And fuel costs are probably the third major factor but that too has had its spikes in the past (for some of us - still have the ration books).

So routes, modes of transport, and sizes of vehicles will always change to suit the world situation and personal circumstance, at any given time. As it has done in the past.
For instance, it seems to me over the last 1 to 2 years, the popularity of going east (from UK) towards eastern Russia and SE Asia has increased enormously, while fewer are going to Africa. And the size/costs of bikes in use seems to be going down. (Standby for the major 'farkles' merchandisers to launch their new range of overlanding gizmos for the Honda C90!)

And there's a lot to say for the "travel to nearby places, look further while there" philosophy. If nobody is hearing that now, I think they may do in the future. It has a lot going for it, which I'm beginning to find myself and hope to explore more. (Although maybe, in reality, it's not much cheaper than overlanding on a distant continent).

For one thing that isn't mentioned much above, (just one brief reference), is health. And you need it more than money.
Consequently I find there's a lot to keep me interested in researching places nearby; finding I can travel there easily by bicycle, stay a good while and still see new things. And as I've learnt from a few long bicycle trips in the past, fuel costs don't matter.

Yep, I've always got me bike(s)!
(And a bus pass now, - which changes everything yet again!)

__________________
TTR250 - London to Cape Town

Corrrection fully accepted on the Ogri quote. "Moybe its becorz Oi ain't a Londonaa"....

And there's a lot to be said for the Honda 90.

Given that some of the posts here are thoughtfully written, some may care to look at
http://International Journal Of Motorcycle Studies
for something a cut way above the bike magazine stuff with its talk of "loads of grunt" and "grin factor" clichés..

The situation is very different in Europe, full of small countries piled on top of each other. You need a passport to actually go anywhere, which is probably as much reason for 'most' (and I'd be willing to wager its still not a majority) have a passport than any real desire to travel farther than a few hundred miles from home. Riding across the EU is roughly equivalent to riding across the lower 48 is it not?

Regardless, money and the costs of it all have certainly put a damper on my long distance trip planning. I really really really want to spend a few months riding around Europe, but the cost of shipping my bike over and back is absurd. I could spend months traveling in North, Central, and South America for the money I'd spend to get over and back, before factoring in 2x-3x fuel costs; its a rough pill to swallow. But I think as others have mentioned, its the 'other' stuff that gets in the way as you get older and get used to the ins and outs of what needs to happen to put a tour together. I also still believe there are more people out there now than ever before, the sky isn't falling its just changing.

__________________
2008 Yamaha WR250R

Yes Skierd, on needing a passport, this is true to a point, though Schengen means that for many countries a passport is not needed. But your basic point is valid.

On "riding across the EU" I take your point, tho' it's more about moving out of your comfort zone, whatever the distance.

There is a real problem in Europe you don't have in the US and that's the price of fuel, which is crippling here, I think.

I agree with most points, or I’d say with the spirit of your post. But I also think there’s another side of the coin to be seen:

- The comparison between overlanding and flying costs may be misleading: fuel prices have raised, but also flight tickets prices have gone rock bottom, so they are comparatively much cheaper now. I assume that flying your bike to another continent has to be much cheaper today than it used to be. Nonetheless, oil prices and industry are THE BIGGEST SCAM on Earth (…alongside with banks, of course). I don’t get that petrol can be more expensive than drinks (, soft drinks, juice, etc) and still there is no alternative to it. I hate that lobby, a burden for all of us.

- Some regions get tougher to go to, but others open as well: far Russia/Siberia and the Stans are accessible, as it happened with the Eastern block in general, for instance. I’m pretty sad about Western Africa, it’s in my agenda, but thinking about rushing through Timbuktu or elsewhere, instead of taking it easy looks the opposite of what I’d like. But this looks like cycles.

- I think there is an assumption that should be clear to someone committing to travelling intensively, especially if you plan to keep the pace at an older age: if you focus a lot on travelling, years-off, investing in gear, etc, then your professional career won’t perform (I hate that word!) so good as if you only focused on working and working and working and working. So, it’s reasonable to think that you’ll have less cash in the long run. It’s not only the money you spend (instead of invested) and the cash you did not earn that year since you did not work (we call that “lucro cesante”, lost profit?), but also that those years-off may stop you going higher in the job hierarchy. Or you may keep a “worse job” because it allows you more free time (for wrenching, planning, etc), or whatever. So it’s definitely a compromise to consider. Such a life will have a toll.

Something that seems to worry (not that Caminando mentioned it in the opening post), is that going abroad is getting more and more expensive… Well, fortunately for them, many developing countries are growing much faster than us (Western nations in decline), so that’s why they are much more expensive to travel now (India, Brazil, etc). The same happened to the countries that didn’t suffer that much the consequences of the WWII, such as the US or Switzerland, which comparatively were getting “poorer and poorer” against the other Western nations.

Regarding the future… I agree, I’m quite pessimistic, at least regarding Western countries (I cannot find a better term): I feel there is a wealth exchange of money going from middle-class towards VERY upper class (ultra-rich). Middle-class, which is the cement in the society, what gives stability in the long run, tends to disappear IMO, and that’s very, very bad.

Esteban