So the '59 Chevy is the pinnacle of automobile design, but you are a sheep if you prefer a retro styled bike, even if it has modern performance. Okay, got it.

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Andy Tiegs
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/ts...lsouth-america

No, you are missing my point.......

....... which is that I only like the design of vehicles which were styled "after" the period I first started to take an interest in them.

I don't like "retro style" vehicle design which harkens back to a period earlier than that, which is why I can't understand why riders who are the same age as, or younger than me, do like bikes with a 1940s styling theme.

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

It suggests you have a problem accepting that people can have views and opinions contrary to the ones you hold. That's your issue mate, work it out rather than bad mouth others.

Molly, TWB, Deelip et al.

First, I agree the '59 and '60 Caddy Eldorado convertibles are the absolute pinnacle in automotive styling. From that point forwards, apart from the Italian thoroughbreds most vehicles have become more subdued in their styling.

Second, yes, we have our share of Vintage clubs here in Oz too - I personally am a member of the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club - but I think there is a big difference between members of what I call "classic" bike clubs, and the Cruiseresque neanderthals who ride and drive "artistic recreations".

Third, yes, I am also totally opposed to the criminal elements that ride motorcycles and go by the name of bikie gangs. I feel these individuals have tarred the image of motorcyclists and caused a lot of problems for those riders who simply want to ride, rather than project a threatening image. So when I see ostensibly educated individuals trying to emulate the image of being a criminal by riding the bikes gang members choose to ride, and dressing like a "bad ass pirate" it disturbs me. Like Molly, my exposure to bikies when I was in my teens has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Fourth, yes, I agree ergonomics is very important for a bike and that older designs can be a lot more comfortable. Many "adventure" style bikes are nothing more than an ergonomic replication of the riding positions of bikes from the '60s and '70s. As an older rider I really appreciate this. However, compare this to your average 1940s style cruiser with "features" such as feet forward riding positions, raked forks, limited ground clearance, tiny headlights, thick handlebars, small capacity tanks and tiny pillion seats - all of which either counted separately, or combined, add up to an ergonomic and safety disaster.

Finally, I do agree these older style bikes are selling well, I just don't believe the vast majority of them are being purchased by those who truly enjoy riding motorbikes, rather they are bought by those who like the "badass" image. If they were true motorcyclists, then why would they predominantly only use their bikes for group rides, trailer them to rallies, ride them only short distances to the local pub or cafe, and only on sunny days? Short answer = sheep.

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

A popular style that has emerged recently among the HD guys (younger mostly)
are super HIGH "Ape Hangar" type handlebars. Very common and SO stupid.
Not only uncomfortable but dangerous as Hell at any speed over about 60 mph.

Not to mention the rider becomes a huge Wind Sail, loose Levi or leather jacket flapping like a flag. Absurd. You can actually SEE the FLEX in the bars, as they are so high up!

Here in California these clowns are often the fastest on the Freeways, splitting lanes (filtering) at 75 mph when traffic is flowing nicely at 65 mph. These are the guys who will turn the public against us ... and force them to outlaw lane splitting entirely. (now legal in CA)

The world would be a less interesting place if everyone of the same age had the same tastes.

I currently own 6 motorcycles, 6 different brands. Regardless of which one I might be riding if you met me, if you chose to pidgeon hole me according to what you believe about riders of that bike, you would be wrong.

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Andy Tiegs
https://new.horizonsunlimited.com/ts...lsouth-america

If you say Harley people rightly or wrongly think weekend pirate village people. I'm 41 and at the younger end of the UK bike community. The training and insurance costs limit new riders to sucessful 30-45 year olds. These guys (and they are mostly male) want usable bikes with features that match their cars. BMW GS's etc. match a sort of continued gap year mentality so sell well. The Italian lifestyle, street fighter, video game in real life nakeds like the Monster do well and lead on to the classic styles. What I see very little of here is leather body warmers and beards on the under 55's. Sports bikes are becoming rare as we have wall to wall speed cameras and renting at a track is cheaper than insurance for the road. People also like to switch types, a Japanese naked followed by an Italian classic followed by a German adventure bike because the new style is part of the buying experience almost like getting a new haircut to go with new clothes.

I wonder where Harley go next as they do seem to be one trick pony in this regard? Do they think 33 year old lawyers and accountants are suddenly going to decide Dennis Hopper, 70 mile range and apehangers are cool? I'd be thinking of getting that engine into something that looks more like a Vincent and wouldn't look out of place parked outside an Italian coffee shop. If they toned down the biker gang think I think they could have their cake and eat it.

Andy

There's still a lot of mileage in the pirate market yet. It's the first half decent sunny day of the year here and my staid and sedate neighbour from down the road has just rumbled by on his Harley, complete with matt black open face helmet, shades and cowboy style sleeveless leather jacket. If he's bought into it there must be countless weekend warriors harbouring secret "outlaw" fantasies. He may have to transport the kids to football and his wife to Tesco's in the anonymous diesel "mini van" during the week, but Sunday morning .....

Remember Buells? The one attempt that "they" made to broaden the appeal of the marque foundered upon, well, I'm not sure - internal politics? real economics? something else? Certainly from my outsider-on-the-other-side-of-the-planet perspective it looked like they were only playing at it and didn't really take the potential seriously. Maybe it was a case of interesting design ideas cobbled together with 50 yr old technology parts that didn't gell.

You've reminded us of yet another interesting twist in the long Harley story.
I agree, they pretty much blew their chance to really diversify the mark and to bring in the next generation of Harley riders. What they did do were half hearted efforts, under financed projects the board of directors did not stay with long.

Their last best hope was Eric Buell. I loved Buell motorcycles, more their spirit of ingenuity and innovation rather than their actual capabilities.
The race bikes Eric Buell built right at the end of the road ... were indeed, quite impressive. I was lucky enough to have got many Buell press bikes, some I got to hang onto for over a month. They just kept getting BETTER AND BETTER.

But apparently ... the PHD executives on the top floor could not wait, ran out of patience .... As if you can build a brand in 10 years ... or even 20.

But to fill in the blanks .. we must say Harley did do more. Half hearted efforts?
Perhaps.

One move was the 883 Sportster. (late 80's) Specifically designed for novice riders and Women. With a very low seat height and smaller look, it had some good elements for beginning riders.

The other beginner bike effort was the Buell Blast, a 500cc single. IMO, this platform had great potential. Labeled a "chick bike" by the One Percenters, Harley got scared and pulled the plug after 3 or 4 years of production. The Blast was doing fairly well, and many NON HD riders bought this bike, but overall numbers were modest.

I can't recall any other significant efforts to broaden the base. Even with profits soaring ... HD held back and relied on the same basics, betting on nostalgia and pseudo American myth to carry the mark forward.

Best thing I've seen from them recently is an impressive electric bike ... which will most likely NEVER go into production.

"So, Einstein" ... people say ... "What would YOU have HD do?" "What direction should they take?"

1. Keep making the same crap ... it's bread and butter for HD, can't give that up.
2. Build two Adventure bikes, one using modernized V twin and built by Eric Buell, the other using a single, built from scratch. Could be a flat track race replica, ADV bike, Commuter beginner bike, dual sport bike. So, multiple bikes built on ONE platform and engine.

The R&D of ADV bikes should be overseen by Eric Buell.

Give these bikes at least 10 years. Get behind them, market them (they never helped Buell in this regard) and get them in the hands of the right people in the press.

Right now, Harley are in big trouble. Both Indian and Victory are kicking their ass in nearly every category. But there are SO MANY HD's on the road presently, the company will still do well just from parts, service and maintenance for 20 years to come. Re-sale value of HD is dropping and THOUSANDS can be seen for sale every day on Craig's list sites world wide.
Prices are still good ... how much longer before prices take the elevator to the ground floor?

Few things to add here.

First off, the 59/60 Eldorado are no where near the Pinnacle of automotive styling. While Molly certainly knows his motorcycles, he should stick in that regard as automotive styling was magnificent long before 60.
IF you like Bling however I would say the 50s and early 60s with their chrome everywhere could be linked to the Height if you will before the demise to plastic everything .
IMO the Pontiacs, Buicks and Cadillac's absolutely owned in this regard in those periods. IMO however one of the best looking rigs ever to exist was the 50 Merc PERIOD!
I had a Mint 57 Pontiac Chieftain I really regret getting rid of. That is saying something as I had a laundry list of dream classic cars by the time I was graduated highschool. Look at this baby (not mine, I had one which was yellow and black) https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...CA8C&FORM=VIRE

Next, despite my absolute disdain for Hogs I would bet there is an equal amount of garage queen metric bikes (more probably) as there are hogs.
In fact nearly every person I know who rides Hogs actually tours on them One used to wear colors (great guy and you will not haer me say that often) the others of course are posers.
My actual thoughts regarding Hogs, and how my personal disdain grew.
Thoughts of the Ages: Harley Davidson, why I want to make a boat anchor out of one.

Stereo types can apply at times, but more often they fall short.
One thing I learned while selling cars was never, ever pre judge.
I saw more people with Rolex Watches who were tapped out and could not finance a carton of Milk. While that that skater punk just wrote a check for that WRX and the old farmer with a paper bag full of bills just paid cash for three trucks for his business.

While I will always side eye people like any other human being with some shameful tendencies, I know those side eyes are not always warranted, we are truly a fallible creature.

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