.

It is scary ... but I guess its the logistics of manufacturing wholesale and of retail distribution chains.

For example, my understanding is BMW pay at factory level, something like 27 EUR for a standard non ESA R1200GS rear shock from suppliers ... but it retails for 900 EUR at a BMW dealer.

I have heard BMW got the airshocks for the X-Challenges almost for free (I have even heard 'for free') because Continental made too many of them for the HP2 Enduro and just wanted to get rid of them since they didnt work that well and seemed to have no future ... yet they retail for something like 1200 EUR.

I am guessing BMW pay no more than 300-400 EUR to Loncin for an 650cc engine ... yet they are 7000 from a dealer if you want a replacement.

If you are a manufacturer, stuff costs next to nothing (by our retail standards) from suppliers. It costs so little at factory level to have good forks or a shock in the bike, but so much at the consumer end, especially if it is aftermarket. To have a good seat or good rims on the bike from the factory ... again a tiny increase, for us, it is hundreds.

The problem is us ... the buyers. We arent discerning enough to drive the manufacturers to include quality bits. The return on investment for manufacturers is to put 5 more hp on the bike ... cause people will pay thousands of pounds for 5 or 10 more horses or a flash new look. But in general, customers dont care enough about the quality or durability of components to make manufacturers use them.

The HP2 enduro is a prime example. When it came out it was about 5k more than the standard GS. Where does the 5k go? The bike had crap forks and a crap rear airshock ... but was sold as a HP (high performance) bike. When it came out the stock GS had 100 hp, the HP2 had 105. Basically the buyers were prepared to pay 5k for 5 extra hp. They sure as hell werent paying it for the suspension! Obviously the bike was a fair bit lighter with that suspension, and it had bigger wheels, but the wheels werent any better, just bigger. i.e. they wouldnt have cost BMW any more money.

So every year, the manufacturers respond to customers demands, and build bikes with slightly more power than the previous model. There is simply no driver to put better suspension on an adventure bike. And there is no driver in adventure bikes to make them lighter. Because the ones that sell the most, are the heaviest models. So that gives you an idea where adventure bikes are going from a manufacturers perspective ... more powerful, bigger and heavier. Cause that pays the bills. Thats why its more important for KTM to develop a 1200 Adventure model than to develop a 690 Adventure model. Its a pity, but thats the reality. And its a reality that we, the consumers, have created. I dont think we can blame the manufactures for this one.

I think the last bike that someone made that you could jump on in the showroom, ride it away from the dealer and head off round the world, was the 640 Adventure. And the sad reality is that it just didnt sell.

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So why didn't it sell enough ? Small market ? We are all tight ? Wasn't advertised enough ? Too lean on the profit margins ?

combination of buyers too tight and market too small I imagine.

A lot of people complain about the cost of adventurising a bike ... but for a reality check, have a look at what it costs a 4WD average prep for a drive to Capetown or Mongolia or Magadan ... £50k is a typical 4WD prep budget ... even for someone who starts off with a cheap old landrover.

Yet bikers wont spent 5k to prep a bike. Only a few spend 2k, and everyone else wants something to go round the world on that costs 2-3k all up. Is that realistic?

On one hand, yes you can buy and prep a bike to go round the world on 2k worth of bike, on the other hand, to spend 4-5k adventurising a bike is hardly excessive either. Thats a key point. Bikes are so cheap to prepare anyway, that even doing it really well is still a bargain.

We complain that so many of the adventure bikes being built now are the 'starbucks' adventure bikes. But who is to blame for that? Thats the only section of the adventure market prepared to spend any money.

Even the guys who are prepared to spend 15k to buy an "adventure bike" find it hard to comprehend someone who buys a bike for 3k and spends 4k it making a very purpose focussed adventure bike.

On another forum, a year or two back, we were talking about a potential KTM 690 Adventure that everyone claims to want. I mentioned bearing in mind the cost of changes that would need to be made to the 690 Enduro to make it work, and the base cost of the 690 Enduro, the 690 Adventure would have to come in at around GBP 9000. Would people be prepared to spend that on a well sorted single cylinder adventure bike? Suddenly everyone baulked.

There is a mentality that if the bike is light and single cylinder it cant possibly be worth as much as a heavier bike. Even if it is better for the job! So the reality is, if KTM made a 690 Adventure and put it on the market for 9k, 95% of potential customers would change their mind in the showroom, spend a grand more and get the 990 Adventure. Again its back to buyers associating "value" with "size" and "horsepower".

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The thing is that we all approach "bikes" from different viewpoints. Bike travel is supposed to be a cheaper form of transport, there are many countries around the world that show that. But quite realistically the cheaper the bike the less profit from sale. so you have to sell more, lots more or you sell a good number of the flavour of the month(s). It has already been said that when manufacturers put higher spec parts on the bike the price jumps massively. This would be to make up that profit margin, I would say. The people who can afford this jump in price and don't know if it is actually worth it in terms of return will always spend more that is not restricted to bikes. Have a look at the 4WD market, we have almost fully road based pretend 4WDs all over the place.

I think the reason we get what we do is because thats what the masses (in bike terms) are willing to pay for because they (the masses) don't know any better. Is a 15k heavy BMW worth it, I don't think so, will a 2-6k special do the same job, I think so. Will I look cooler on one rather than the other, more like an adventurer or like some famous person ? Do people buy it because they see others riding it, yes. Do manufactures take advantage of this, yes.

Do the manufactures have a responsibility to make a bike that is fit for purpose in a market that is a minority within a minority ?

No........ simple.


They serve the market, and the market suggests that most people don't do what the flyer shows what the scope of the design suggests in the first place. So if they can sell it without putting as much effort and testing into it. Put tried and tested simple parts on it and still have the 'adventure' brochure to cover all aspects of the larger bike market, wouldn't you?

As for the initial debate. I think you can split the group of people who mod the crap out of their bikes in 2 distinct groups. The catalogue bolt on people, and the swap parts for improvement people. Most probably start in the first and a percentage of that end in the second ending up with heaps of TT or similar crap worth nothing because it doesn't take much for it to fall apart.

Don't really understand the mentality on this site either often. A lot of threads start with how can I prepare for off road by first comers. Then often end up learning on a road orientated bike riding on the road (often because there isn't much off road around), than ask about gear and end up with heaps of recommendation for Altberg boots and often end up posting threads about the horrors of certain road conditions. Controversial views??? Just stirring...... or am I?

Cost is relative. Some spend heaps on smoking, drinking, gambling, collecting, or on art. In the end it's a hobby. What's wrong with spending money on a hobby? A trip doesn't have to be cheap, nor does it have to be expensive. But in reality, if you have patience and keep saving a percentage from your pay package you can make it whatever you want. If you don't have patience, just go cheap.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

I agree, I think what we get is a direct representation of what the majority want and buy. Which leaves the rest to modify to their needs.

I like your division of the "Mod" person types. I would fall into the latter due to the bike not having something I wanted like luggage racks, big enough screen, 12v socket, engine protection, oil temp gauge...hang on most of these bolt on am I in the first category ?

I agree that what makes a bike fit for purpose is very subjective but the basic idea of an adventure bike or overland travel bike was established years ago and models such as the BMW R100GS and Africa Twin pretty much hit the nail on the head. Sadly, in my opinion, these have evolved into what I now refer to as the Starbucks tourers whilst the manufacturers have been developing smaller capacity engines which are much more suited to long distance travel (BMW XC and KTM 690 for example) as well as being a good basis for a relatively lightweight off road capable machine. Whilst they've made a reasonable attempt at a trail/enduro bike using these engines they've not come up with a Tenere equivalent. Is this because the market is too small - I don't think so as -with the Starbucks model a lot of purchasers are buying into a style or image with no real intention of using the bike for an overalnd trip. This has a downside in that the manufacturer will fit cheap parts to keep the retail price down but at least we might have something that would form a good starting point for a travel bike without having to invest 25% of the cost of the bike just to increase it's fuel capacity.

I think the real reason that we're not seeing these bikes is, as has been said in the car industry for decades - small car (bike), small profit.

I agree, but conversely, at the Enduro and Motocross end of the market the buyers are always looking for better equipment and, it seems, not too bothered about the cost. KTM have in the past fitted better equipment (White Power and Brembo competition stuff) to their adventure bikes but even they are supplying cheap replicas now and getting away with it.

Profit margins on the Starbucks tourers must be enormous

Here’s a thread with a similar title started back in 2003 and nibbled at once or twice over the years until 2009: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ding-bike-5122

It’s interesting to see how opinions on “perfect bikes” are both varied, but positively differing during the growth of the “adventure bike” market niche in the past 5 or 10 years.

I believe the perfect bike is the one that actually fulfils your needs, whatever they are. The important thing is that you actually have an adventure. For some it’s solo light weight off road, for others it’s 2 up on-road with the kitchen sink. It’s what you can afford and that actually floats your boat. This week even the Starbucks tourers can have an “adventure” negotiating the mean streets to their local skinny latte serving establishment in the war zones that are England’s burnt out city centres!

I’m glad that late 1980s and 1990s, particularly Japanese, bikes are so well built. That way I can afford to spend a couple of £grand a piece (or less) and have my solo lightweight minimal luggage offroad adventures (Suzuki DRZ400: actually it’s a 2005 bike!), as well as 2 up or solo pavement/gravel touring adventures with lots of luggage (Honda A/T and T/A), where all 3 bikes combined cost about a third of the price of one new fat blinged up 1200gsa/ktm990/xtz1200.

The points made above about buying costs of certain inadequate “accessories” in comparison to their retail price are IMHO quite shocking. Then again the Starbucks crowd are happy and BMW/KTM shareholders are happy, so why not. Each to their own.


An aside: What mustn’t be forgotten also is the cost of a CdP. A 2 year old (new price £15k) bike will require a mortgage (at least for me) to afford a CdP. A CdP for an older bike will be a lot less.

Cheers
Chris

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TBS.com

I dont think the shareholders of any bike manufacturer are particularly happy. Again, just trying to be fair to the manufacturers, they aint making money. We slag them off when we get frustrated, or complain about the cost of spare parts. But they obviously are not pricing them too high because many of them are almost broke.

KTM was on the verge of bankruptcy 18 months ago, and while the situation is now stable, they dont have any money for expansion or R&D right now.

Aprilia is on the ropes.

Moto Morini went under recently.

Its pretty cut-throat out there for the manufacturers right now.

I suspect they sell the bikes as cheap as they can, due to too much competition, and have to make money on the parts and accessories due to significantly reduced competition in that area.

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Maybe it's time to address the ideals of some of their customers. I'm more a sideline expert but it seems that a lot if not all of the key items of what's on the wish list are off the shelf products so R&D can be minimum. I'd be in the market for a proper bike instead of spending that money making one myself now. Happy to spend it, but until that happens I'm just not. No one's listening it seems so if that's resulting in going bust, tough cookies I reckon. A company like KTM has had plenty of opportunities and instead they spend a fair bit of coin developing something like a 690 with rubbish results.

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Tacos Tyring Travels.com

Hi Walter

I don’t have a problem if bike companies or their dealers who build bags of sh!t or do shoddy work for too much money go to the wall. Being a potential customer for any bike I’ve never considered an Apillia, nor MM as a brand I’d like to own.

As far as KTM go, I think their 400/450exc models might make a good starting point for a travel bike, but the 640 was a whole load of dudu from the start (What about all those poor beta testers up until 2003 who only had grief with the motor (big end bearing? clutch master something or other?). I met a 640 overlanding Dane in Cairo in late 1999 who had problems with his front wheel bearings. KTM had put in the wrong size (“if it doesn’t fit properly, just hit it with a hammer”) from new from the factory! The 690 FI issues that have been bitched about in various forums and on Dave Lomax/ADV-Spec’s recent Morocco caper definitely scare me. If they ever wanted to sell big volumes of big “adventure” bikes they missed the biggest trick ever telling Ewen and Things to get lost when they came grovelling for bikes.

Or BMW dealerships: £85/hour (or more?) labour and “they all do that sir”. My "exploits" on an old Airhead won't be mentioned here: The list is tool long.


Or Sid Moram’s Honda in Slough (circa mid 1990s) who failed my 250 Honda dirt bike MOT because of a bush on the shock being a bit soft so he could sell me a new shock… I went to a different testing station and it passed no problem. Or their mechanic who put a front sprocket on the wrong way round on my A/T (during a C and S change: in the days when I didn’t know how to do stuff like that) and didn’t notice. I did. He’s also “forgotten” to put the grill back on to protect one of the 2 radiators.

Maybe there is a niche for bikes that are fit for purpose (that the glossy brochures/websites portray; that quite a few people on this forum and on sites like advrider do or aspire to do) and work, where salesmen don’t B/S you and where you don’t feel a rip off heading your way the minute you enter their dealership/website.

Slag off/Rant over…

Cheers
Chris

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TBS.com

Manufacturers going to the wall is a double edged sword. KTM is probably the one manufacturer that might produce the high spec bike some of you guys are looking for. However, to say a shock absorber manufacturer they aren't a customer, they are a PITA. If KTM go bust, the shock manufacturer will breath a sigh of relief that they won't have to keep fending off requests for weird parts and chasing payment (I stopped supply of a part to TVR in another life, they though their name was too important for them to pay their bills or stay within the terms of the parts warranty. My employer was fine that I'd dumped a loss making account).

How will say BMW react though? They can get together with HPN or Touratech and produce a factory variant at a higher price than their standard offering and try to get more KTM's old customers. As I believe has been pointed out above though, they'll basicaly expect their suppliers to give away the fancy bits to keep the standard business. The alternative is to say to KTM's old customers, "there's the G650, F800 and R1200, take 'em or leave 'em". They'd take 25% of KTM's business for no effort at all.

We are of course own own worst enemies. We buy BMW's that aren't properly tested. We buy a Triumph because it has a Union Jack on the side panel. We buy sportsbikes because one with the same name on the tank won something. The manufacturers provide the sub-£10000, new styled plastic, space-invaders-game-built-into-the-dash we demand. They cut corners on the suspension because 10 guys will buy because it's the new shape to one that notices the shocks.

Did anyone realise Triumph are using Excel rims on the Tiger BTW? No idea if these are better or just their old rims rebranded, but maybe they do listen sometimes?

Andy

This is the result of the buyers not being sufficiently discerning or demanding. It's easy and cheap for the manufacturers to bling up a bike with electronic wizardry and, as you say, a lot of buyers buy style over substance. The overland adventure market is only a small percentage of those that would buy a rallye styled bike and supplying worthy suspension as original equipment just eats into the margin but doesn't generate many sales.

BMW have been criticised for supplying substandard suspension components but they just go to the cheapest supplier and at least you know it's going to be rubbish. KTM on the other hand either own or have shares in White Power and therefore fit what is basically a reputable make but are in some cases fitting low grade substitutes for the real thing (still made by WP but to a much lower spec.).