Interesting topic Seb .... I have a couple of thoughts on this that are quite a different point of view.

While I absolutely would not accept bribing a police officer in my own country, my view in other countries is totally related to the local culture. If it is a normal process there, then I do feel that its culturally arrogant to not play by the local cultural rules.

I used to go to a bar I liked in the Moscow, and used to tip very well. The tip was not to make the barman happy, it was because the bar was often very crowded, and if that barman saw me, he would serve me first at a crowded bar, cause he knew he would get a big tip if he did that. I am paying money to get something done more quickly.

Is that me not having self respect?

I was paying for priority service. I was paying to have the process of buying a drink in a crowded bar sped up.

Some people pay for priority boarding on Easyjet.

I am happy to pay to speed up the process if I get caught speeding in Russia or Ukraine or Kazakhstan or wherever. The full process, of having a full ticket written out, going to a bank, queueing to pay the fine is long, slow and economically inefficient (it wastes half a day of your travelling time). Paying half the fine to the policeman on the spot saves my time, saves the banks customers time(they dont have to queue behind a wall of speeding fine payers) and saves the state the money it would need to pay the police if that process wasnt normal.

At the end of the day thats all anything in the economy is. Your employer bribes you to come to work. You bribe a plumber to fix your broken pipes. You bribe him more if he can come more quickly, serving you first, and leaving his other customers who arent willing to pay a premium to wait.

I think you need to define exactly what you mean by bribery and what is specifically negative about it in a case by case basis.

I used to take clients out to nice restaurants so that their firm would deal with me and not a competitor. Investment banks take clients to the Monaco Grand Prix - it isnt cause they like them. Its cause they are trying to manipulate their choices by the application of money.

Corporate entertainment is bribery, pure and simple. You offer expensive gifts and services (but theoretically not money) to encourage an individual who works for another entity, to make that entity spend money with your entity. You are trying to affect that persons choice by means that have nothing to do with the quality or price of the product or service you are offering. - You are trying to affect the outcome, and what you are offering is personal enrichment. i.e. bribery.

Thats something that is a keystone of western business, yet is 100% bribery. Why is western style bribery acceptable and eastern style bribery not?

what concerns me in this story is no one seems to care whether or not the guy has broken the law. If he was pulled over by the police, its not for something or another. Its cause he was caught speeding, or he crossed a white line or some other breach of the traffic laws. Or possibly for no reason. But it is relevant. You actually implied he was pulled over for speeding. If he was pulled over cause he broke the law, and he made life difficult for the cop to get out of paying a fine (whether to the cop or to the state) then HE is the guy who has no morals in my book. If he was speeding, and he knew it, then he was just trying to weasel out of a penalty that he genuinely deserves. He broke the law ... AND he was caught doing it. Thats plain and simple. He broke the law and he was pulled over for it by local cops. Natural justice implies he owes someone somewhere a penalty. You can argue all you like about who and where, but him trying to get out of it is him trying to get out of a perfectly just and fair penalty, for being caught breaking the law.

I strongly disagree with the notion of western superiority. That because our police are less corrupt than in other parts of the world, then we can ignore local rules, local police and act as if we have impunity. I think thats cultural arrogance.

While we are on cultural arrogance, I think its important to recognise there is more than one culture in the world. I think its not credible to say one culture or another is inherently superior to others. We might do things differently in the west, but when we travel to these countries, we should accept the way things are done locally and not try to impose out culture. If you dont like eating dog meat, then there is no point going to Korea and complaining about it. If you are female and want to sunbathe topless, then dont go to Iran or the USA.

If you go to Russia / Ukraine / Kazakhstan etc, then I think you have to accept the system works a certain way. The speed traps are not there to catch foreigners. They are not biased against foreigners. A radar catches all people equally. They catch locals and they catch foreigners - equally. The locals pay the fines a certain way. In the back of the cop car. Its the system. Why do you think as a foreigner you dont have to? What makes a westerner immune to following the system? What makes a westerner able to speed, and think he doesnt have to pay fines, when the local have to when they get caught. Does the westerner think he is a superior human being? Above local laws? Above the local system?

I think its very easy to fall in to the habit of thinking "everyone should be like us". "Everyone should do things the way we do". I think its a dangerous way of thinking. And I think its culturally imperialist.

If certain countries are going to change the way they do things, its for THEM to change their system, from within. Its not for us to travel to other countries and feel that "this is the way I demand to be treated". You are in their country. You are not entitled to be treated as anything superior to how they treat locals. You are not special nor do you have more rights because you are a foreigner.

As for us, the travellers, I feel its for us to either accept their system as it is, or not go there.

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Walter, a couple of obvious points:

First, in a lot of "corrupt" places (by which I specifically mean corrupt by Western standards), local people are as offended by this corruption as any of us. The concept of "corruption" being bad doesn't originate among clueless Western tourists who can't relate to other cultures.

Second, a lot of the "corruption" I've experienced does specifically target foreigners like ourselves. It's not an integrated part of local culture; it's an add-on, corresponding to precisely nothing in local terms.

FWIW, I pay when that's the locally-accepted penalty for being caught breaking the law--and when I have in fact broken that law. And I tip when expected to tip by local custom--that can include payments which are sometimes called "baksheesh" or "bribes." Even so, local custom usually includes a period of bargaining--kicking and complaining and whining for all your worth before perhaps capitulating to some minor sort of payout. People who blithely pay whatever is first demanded because they figure that's the way things are done in exotic locales are doing nobody any favors, and they're certainly not participating in local customs.

I will also pay a bribe when I feel genuinely in danger. That's happened exactly once in all my travels, in the middle of the night at a deserted outpost in an African country about to descend into a particularly nasty civil war. Even then, I bargained the guy down, that being what was expected (and being done on all sides of me by the locals).

It's possible we're describing different cultures, all else aside. I'm most familiar with Africa and the Americas; you may be thinking primarily of areas of Europe and Asia. Or not: what do I know? But I think it's worth considering: the rest of the world doesn't operate according to Kazakh or Ukrainian customs any more than it does by Euro or North American standards.

Mark

Mark - I focussed my answer on That area in particular as Seb, the OP, is currently in Mongolia, having just travelled through Ukraine Kazakhstan and Russia - thus its reasonable to assume that area played a strong part in the post. Its also the area where most of my first hand knowledge of such practises originates.

I don't disagree that local people may hate some aspects of corruption. But as I said its up to them to change it rather than for us, as temporary visitors in their country, to demand to be treated differently. I would add that in the countries I mentioned where traffic police can be negotiated with, while the public may hate those traffic police, very few would want to scrap it for full fines and penalty points that result in drivers losing their licences for three minor offences in the previous 5 years like we have in the UK.

I also agree with you that being singled out for larger fines as a foreigner is not something I can generally tolerate. Thus it pays to know local customs, and what's normal fines and practices for dealing with them for locals in that area. I have written posts before describing the usual practice in those countries above and the typical fines associated with certain offences so that people have some idea but to be honest I am surprised it doesnt come up more often.

Again tho my key point is why should a foreigner get different treatment to a local? The example given in the OP was of a guy pulled over for speeding. So thats the example I am working with. At the end of the day, the guy in the example broke the law and he was caught. Why is it unreasonable that he be penalised exactly as a local would be?

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True, BUT:

I never implied (at least that wasn't the purpose) that a foreigner should get another treatment, quite the opposite.

What makes me "angry" (it's a bad choice of word, I can see that now) is that if I get pulled over for no reason, I didn't brake any law, and it is expected that I pay. That's something that I won't do. If anybody think then that I am 'above' the locals or anything, I disagree. I will not pay a "toll" just for passing by, because that's it in the end. And yes, maybe I am alone thinking this, but I've been a cop for the last 10 years and I won't give any "bribe" because I just happen to be passing by and being a foreigner. If I did something wrong, or don't have the right papers or need to speed things up or whatever that's a complete other discussion. That I apparently opened even if it wasn't my goal with my first post

So let me refrase my first post to this:

Honestly, I get "angry" and disappointed when I read that people (especially motorcyclist!!!) paid a bribe to the police for no reason whatsoever. If you broke a law it's your choice to pay the official or unofficial fine, but paying just because you are there for no reason is something that I will never ever do.

I hope this is a bit more clearly, I am really tired and thinking A and writing B apparently, as even Kim (my wife) said that I meant something else than I wrote down... Anyway, I clearly mean paying for nothing because the other one has a uniform/badge/... my opinion.

@ Walter, you're more or less right about the region of which I am talking about, but I've been here last year also... so it's not a one time thing either. And I am clearly well aware of the local habits, that's not the point. And I don't know if he was speeding or not, as he told me I thought not, but if he was it changes everything of course...

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That i totally agree with

And yes it does happen in KZ and UA that you can be pulled over for doing nothing wrong and asked for money. In my experience it doesnt happen in Russia anymore, and hasnt for 10 years or so. They (in RU) might pull you over and ask to check your documents, but only in KZ and UA have I had cops actually make up offences. In those cases obviously its a mind game. For a number of reasons, Ukraine and Kazakhstan are a lot more corrupt at that level than Russia.

Some russian friends have a policy ... tell (or make clear) to the cops that (1) you have plenty of time (2) you have no money (3) you are not afraid of pain.

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