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20 Mar 2014
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I've run both..
Tubed
+ simple, reliable. .. can be made to work with a large hole in the tyre, or a cracked rim ... or both.
- Time taken to fix. Your on tour .. time is not an issue. Relax. Have a tea. It is a bit much in the hot sun though.
Tubeless
+ easy and quick to fix a normal flat.
- Must have tubeless type tyres.
- Difficult to change tyres
- Must have back up tube for emergencies (rim dent, tyre rip etc)
- if you run too low a pressure the tyre can burp and loose even more pressure.
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Rate of flats .. I suspect the tyre has a large part to play here .. tubeless tyres are usually heavier and thicker than the tube type tyres .. and thus get less flats just from their increased thickness and density. If you want to compare then run the same tyres with the same bikes riders etc .. one with a tube the other without and see.
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Tube type rims ....Yes the 'newer' type rims have a significant lip .. older rims don't have it and are much easier to change. The newer ones are supposed to be better if you have a blow out. Your choice - keep the supposed increase in safety .. or remove some of the lip to make it easier to get the tube out. I remove about 200mm length of one the lips opposite the valve.
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14 Dec 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warin
Rate of flats .. I suspect the tyre has a large part to play here .. tubeless tyres are usually heavier and thicker than the tube type tyres .. and thus get less flats just from their increased thickness and density. If you want to compare then run the same tyres with the same bikes riders etc .. one with a tube the other without and see.
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fwiw. I think there is a lot of truth in the above statement - certainly with regard to the actual frequency of punctures (I agree a tube is more time consuming to repair a simple [sharp penetration] puncture than a tubeless - just as long as the hole is nice and small and round and can be plugged satisfactorily)...
Ultimately, the tube is really only the vessel for holding the air - just as the chamber created by a tubeless tyre sealed against the rim is - so ideally you do not want the tyre to let through an object in the first place - whether that be due to the thickness of the tread [blocks] or ultimately the carcass itself.
Running low pressures with tubes can increase the chance of a pinch-flat (typically if you hit a sharp/square edged rock or similar), but on the whole, I'd suggest that a quality tyre, inflated to a sensible pressure for the weight of the bike, is no more likely to puncture with or without a tube?
Certainly I imagine that the reason BMW riders (for example) are not constantly complaining about punctures is less to do with their tubeless rims and more because they are almost always running a Continental TKC80, which has nice big tread blocks, and relatively few thinner gaps between the tread than a more dirt/MX derived all-terrain treaded tyres?
Jx
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15 Dec 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
So what I can't understand (maybe I'm missing something?) is why more manufacturers don't fit tubeless rims as standard or at least offer them as an option. Can anyone enlighten me?
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There's been lots of comments on this thread as to the benefits of tubes, but no enlightenment re my question on the original post as to why BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and KTM will offer tubeless on some models of bikes and not on others. I can only think it's a 'marketing position' type of decision.
I ended up going with Michelin Bib mousses coupled with Michelin Desert tyres and have been running my first set now for close on 10,000km. I took the mousses out recently to have a look and they are still in good condition.
The rear tyre will need changing soon, might put the old mousse back in.
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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)
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15 Dec 2015
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As a production / project engineer I would say the usual factors are at play. The arty types want showroom pretty so off road and retro styles must have spokes. The money people want to buy fabricated up to the production level where buying a casting tool set makes more money. Occasionally the parts department will get a money making wheeze based on using a weird tyre size and controlling the world's supply. Not many people buy their weekend toy based on service needs, we are a fraction of the market.
My industry is different. Trucks use three or four sizes of rim and two variants of hub connection because service requirements rule.
Andy
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15 Dec 2015
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looking at whats available,(and pretty much always has been) it seems to me you can only have tubeless tyres and shaft drive on big bikes, why no air cooled singles or twins around 500cc to 650cc with tubeless tyres and shaft drive ?,(i remember when bmw first hinted they were bringing out a baby gs ,my thoughts of a air cooled single with shaft drive and tubeless tyres vanished when the funduro came out ,just more of the same), i believe its because if there was they wouldnt sell the big top range models, my rant over ,steve
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15 Dec 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssbon
... it seems to me you can only have tubeless tyres and shaft drive on big bikes, why no air cooled singles or twins around 500cc to 650cc with tubeless tyres and shaft drive ?,...
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My Moto Guzzi V7 Stone has shaft (don't know why you would want it specifically mind) and tubeless. 48 HP and about the size of a CB500, so the fact it's 744cc doesn't really matter IMHO. Air cooled, single point injection, pushrod valves and a 300 mile tank are good too. Thread on them here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...guzzi-v7-79979 to avoid going too far OT.
Andy
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15 Dec 2015
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hi andy yes a nice bike ,i should have made the point that i meant ENDURO style bikes,why has the super tenere 1200 got shaft and tubeless tyres and the 660 not,the bmw 1200 both but the 650/800 not,the aprillia caponord shaft drive and tubeless tyres,i have always thought there has been a lost opportunity for a simple air cooled,shaft drive,tubeless tyre,smallish enduro styled bike,i thought when bmw hinted back in 1992 i think about a baby gs (r80/100 air cooled ,shaft drive,tubeless tyres) ,YES i thought a change,but what we got was a liquid cooled single with chain drive and tubed tyres funduro (the same as all the other makers),in my mind nothing like a baby gs,and here we are in 2015/6 with the same being offered ,small bike = chains and tubes and big bikes = shaft and tubeless ,steve
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15 Dec 2015
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R.I.P.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
There's been lots of comments on this thread as to the benefits of tubes, but no enlightenment re my question on the original post as to why BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and KTM will offer tubeless on some models of bikes and not on others. I can only think it's a 'marketing position' type of decision.
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I think you've got it spot on Tim. Big tough ADV bikes are meant to have spokes, so OEM's give punters what they want ... and still offer tubeless convenience. Spokes look "cool", the marketers love that.
Obviously there are compromises and trade offs on these spoked tubeless systems. Pure spoked rims are stronger than cast, but only alternative to tubes are Bibs or converting to tubeless wheel. (questionable)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
I ended up going with Michelin Bib mousses coupled with Michelin Desert tyres and have been running my first set now for close on 10,000km. I took the mousses out recently to have a look and they are still in good condition.
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Bib Mousse are a great solution ... if you have the funds and ability to remove and install them. They seem also to do a pretty good job at protecting rims yet give you the feel when riding of "around" 12 to 14 PSI. Perfect.
I always discounted them because the only info I ever heard about was from Dakar ... where we would hear of them "melting". Dakar guys changed them everyday when the race was held in Africa.
But I realize that at NON race pace Mousse's can last a LONG LONG TIME 
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1 Jan 2016
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I'd say there is more money to be made in selling big bikes. That way, the big bikes get the more expensive extras. A lot of people will want the extras so get a big bike (which might make a part of your body appear bigger ? ) so the smaller bikes get less extras.
Me. I'll just get off the bike, take the riding gear off, light me a cigarette and get on with changing the tube on my little bike after I've found me the other half of the center stand. 
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3 Jan 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
There's been lots of comments on this thread as to the benefits of tubes, but no enlightenment re my question on the original post as to why BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and KTM will offer tubeless on some models of bikes and not on others. I can only think it's a 'marketing position' type of decision.
I ended up going with Michelin Bib mousses coupled with Michelin Desert tyres and have been running my first set now for close on 10,000km. I took the mousses out recently to have a look and they are still in good condition.
The rear tyre will need changing soon, might put the old mousse back in.
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Tim what bike have you been using with the mousses, what sort of riding you been doing, it's just I was thinking of using them on a tour across Russia this year. I'm was put off by what's been said about how and where they should be used,
It's interesting to find they have been in you tyre for a year as the manufacture gives it a shelve life.
If the answers are positive I may have to rethink about using them again,
My bike is a xt 600 Tenere I'll be running tk80 from Greece. from uk I'll be using a road going tyre. I've got two sets of wheels.
My brother lives in corfu he drives over in May every year so he is taking a set of wheels over with some other equipment
Thanks
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3 Jan 2016
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It's on a KTM 690R, see photos here.
I took a great deal of advice from Mike54 and others on a similar thread to this over at AdventureBikeRider.
It's important to get a good match between the tyre and the mousse. The Michelin Desert + Michelin BIB mousses are difficult to fit but long lasting. Not having to carry four tyre levers, two spare inner tubes, an electric tyre inflator, bead buddy, valve puller and bike stand saved a lot of space and weight.
I have to say I ride quite slowly to avoid heat buildup which is what destroys the tyres and mousses, so I'm typically doing 70-80 kph on roads, with occasional 100 kph. They are rated up to 120 kph and I've done that for short intervals but the temperature was below freezing at the time.
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"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)
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3 Jan 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cullis
I have to say I ride quite slowly to avoid heat buildup which is what destroys the tyres and mousses, so I'm typically doing 70-80 kph on roads, with occasional 100 kph. They are rated up to 120 kph and I've done that for short intervals but the temperature was below freezing at the time.
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Hello Tim
A few questions:
What was the mileage of that combination (Michelin Desert + Michelin BIB)?
Can the Michelin BIB survive several tyres?
How did you feel the "airpressure", it sais 0.9, enough for the protection of the rim?
Thanks sushi
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3 Jan 2016
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Just finished reading the two links you posted Tim it seams that it's possible to ride with the Michelin Bib mousses on a a long distance tour.
I think there's a few things to take into consideration correct fitting right tyre combination, I think I'll stick with the plan to ride on to greese on a pair of slicks from there I will have to consider my options,
Tim when you finished your trip on the Michelin Bib mousses last year what's your thoughts on them,
Did you feel the bike moved around with and without luggage, was the bike stable in corners on the road or did it move a little.
I think on the xt600 speed is not going to be a issue 60-70 is about its cruising speed, once in the stans I'm not going to be doing speed more like quick trails.
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