Hi I am travelling down to Argentina/Chile on a US registered KLR650 and was hoping to sell it in Argentina or Chile before returning home. I am a bit alarmed by what I have been reading about buying a bike in Argentina but does this only applyto Argentinian registred bikes?

How easy will it be to sell my bike down there?
What is the precedure for transfereing the tittle if it's US registered?
In the Central American countries there is such a high import tax you couldn't even give the bike away what about Argentina/Chile?

Thanks in advance Baz

Bazmataz, great question?

You might be able to sell your US registered bike in Argentina, but to do it legally it will be as costly and as difficult, or much more difficult, than doing it in Central America. I do not recommend trying to sell a foreign registered bike in Argentina.

If a foreign tourist purchases an Argentine registered bike in Argentina, the current law might be interpreted as making it illegal for the foreign tourist owner to leave Argentina with his/her Argentine registered bike.

Entering Argentina with a foreign registered bike is not problem, you have up to 8 months (if requested at border upon entering) for your *bike to be in Argentina legally, before having to exit. Upon exit you can reenter Argentina a ask for an additional 8 months in country.

For a new buyer to exit Argentina with a foreign registered bike might be very problematic.

*Don't forget, a tourist visa is issued for 3 months only, so you will need to extend your tourist visa if staying longer than 3 months. Keep us posted ... especially if you discover where to sell as foreign registered bike in South America? xfiltrate

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Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
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lots of guys are flying into buenos aires looking for a bike ,either do the title transfer from the usa (harder) or get creative with a scanner and color copier eg scan it in change the name, copy it in colour and you have a title in there name this will keep any border guy more than happy ,then while they are riding north back to the states the real title transfer can take place well before they reach mexico,get it shipped to a DHL office in mexico and all's sweet for when they hit the border try selling on here or flea market in advrider

Thecanoeguy, there are foreign Tourists in Argentina who would like to purchase used motorcycles. This is true, but I have a couple questions regarding your plan that might enable one foreign tourist to sell a bike to another foreign tourist in Argentina, and then the foreign tourist (buyer) would be able to exit Argentina and ride to Mexico and the States.

Your answers are greatly appreciated, I do not recommend falsifying any official documents and please answer the following questions.

OK, I understand that you recommend falsifying the Title of the Foreign registered motorcycle by copying the name of the foreign tourist (buyer) onto the title after removing the foreign tourists (seller) name.

1. How do you falsify the Temporary Import Permit for the motorcycle. The foreign tourist seller's name is on this important document and it must be presented upon exiting Argentina. Not only is the owners name on the document, but there is also an identification number on the Temporary Import Permit... and this is checked by computer at almost all borders...and by the police at check points..... The name and the number must match, or the bike will be impounded. What do you recommend?

2. If the bike is registered in the USA, the majority of States, all but 3 or 4 demand the seller and the buyer be physically present at a motor vehicles dept in the State and both must provide legal identification for the title transfer to take place. What do you recommend?

3. If the motorcycle enters Mexico in the name of the buyer, with the falsified title, the bike will have to exit Mexico and be stamped out in the buyers name, obviously, the bike cannot enter the States with a false title as a computer check at the border will alert border officials to the *scam.

*even if a legal transfer is effected in the states or another country... and the new legal title is DHL to the buyer in Mexico, the title number will be different from the falsified title and the buyer, exiting Mexico on the falsified title, might have big, big problems entering the States on a title with a different title number.

Please advise. thanks xfiltrate

IMPORTANT DATA

EDITED NOTE: I knew I was forgetting one more question. I assume the foreign tourist buyer will purchase insurance by presenting the falsified title with his/her name on it? This would enable the foreign tourist buyer to have an insurance card to present to police, if asked. But, if an accident occurred or there was bodily injury caused by the foreign tourist buyer, the title would be checked/verified very carefully by attorneys working for the insurance company and possibly by attorneys working for the injured party.

Once it was discovered that the title had been falsified, and a check of the vin # of the bike revealed that the bike was still owned by the foreign tourist (seller), then any liability caused by the foreign tourist (buyer) would also fall on the foreign tourist (seller). And, the foreign tourist (seller) insurance might have expired or been cancelled.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS, ONCE THE INSURANCE COMPANY DISCOVERS THE TITLE HAD BEEN FALSIFIED, THE INSURANCE IS INVALID AND THEREFORE, THE FOREIGN TOURIST (BUYER) WILL BE RIDING AT GREAT RISK WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REAL/ VALID INSURANCE COVERAGE.

4. Please advise how to handle the insurance problem?

If anyone needs to be convinced that insurance is an absolute necessity while riding in Mexico Central or South America, please read my post POST TO LUNAPIX COPIED BELOW:

"Hi Lunapix, it is true you might not be asked to prove you have insurance unless you have an accident.

But, I have lived in Mexico for 3 years and as recently as a couple years ago rode through Mexico. Sit down, my boy, and let me explain the facts of life.

If you are involved in an accident with substantial property damage or any injury that requires hospitalization, here are some facts to consider.

The Mexican police, on the streets, are not trained or allowed to determine fault. They generally arrest everyone involved in a serious accident, who does not have insurance. This is done to prevent anyone escaping responsibility for the accident. If you have insurance, the police will verify that insurance with the insurance company, and unless the accident involves, significant property damage, a death or possibility of death, you probably will not be detained.

If you are arrested, for not having insurance, or because the accident is very serious, you might be in a Mexican jail for weeks, even months, waiting for your turn to go before a judge, who is qualified to determine fault in the accident.

Without insurance, you stay in jail until the judge sorts out who was at fault.

If you have insurance, your insurance agent may be able to have you released from jail, while you wait your turn before the judge. I have known of foreign tourists being held for 6 months before their involvement in an accident could be sorted out by a judge.

Please consider these facts, before deciding to buy or not to buy insurance before entering Mexico."

Ride Free, Eat, Drink and Be Careful and buy insurance damit.

xfiltrate

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www.xfiltrate.com

no one has ever checked my title on bike entering america as a tourist ,you dont have to be present to change a title you can do it by post ,when you leave mexico just use the fake one if your worried it must have worked to get you in maybe buenos argentina might be different ,i have done plenty of dodgy things at borders and got away with if but if you are a rule boy just send the title off and wait for the new one to be sent ,there are plenty have bought usa bikes on here and got out of argentina mnot saying this is the right way but it is a way

Xfiltrate, I'm not qualified (not yet, anyway) to comment on what it's like to use real or false documents in Argentina. However I do cross borders into and out of the USA quite a bit, with rented, borrowed and personally-owned vehicles of various descriptions--been doing it since I was a little boy riding on the rear shelf of my parents' '56 Plymouth--and I've never had anyone check my title or registration while doing so. They're immigration cops--and not very good at it, if you come right down to it. They're not looking for stolen goods being smuggled into the States! If you approach the border full of adrenaline and sweating heavily they might suspect you of carrying drugs, in which case they'll make a cursory search and have a dog sniff around. (The exception here would be if you've got brown skin and black hair, look vaguely arabic, carry a south Asian passport, or in any other way arouse their rather limitless paranoia....in which case I'd suggest making sure that all documents are genuine and all numbers match).

I've also bought and sold at least a couple of dozen new and used vehicles, including bikes, in at least a half-dozen states. I've never needed to have the seller present on any occasion. That's never. Ever.

The dissonance between your claims and my direct experience makes me wonder how seriously to take the rest of what you say. That doesn't mean I think you're necessarily wrong, but it does somewhat beg for clarification.

Safe journeys!

Mark

Gentlemen, as much as I enjoy a logical discussion based on realities I am shortening my response because I do believe that falsifying official documents is not only inherently wrong, but unfair to honest hard working people who do abide by the law.

Call me a "rule boy" if you want and know that your lack of perception is not my problem.

Several of my mates here in Argentina, earn their living and provide for their families by having established legal businesses that buy and sell motorcycles in Argentina. The plan of falsifying titles that you propose, enables foreign tourist sellers and foreign tourist buyers, to circumvent Argentine law created and designed to offer protection from unfair competition in the used motorcycle market.

Markharf, please read more carefully my post. Perhaps your inability to confront the information I present has less to do with accuracy than the fact that it is opposed to your own ethics. Here is what I said:

"3. If the motorcycle enters Mexico in the name of the buyer, with the falsified title, the bike will have to exit Mexico and be stamped out in the buyers name, obviously, the bike cannot enter the States with a false title as a computer check at the border will alert border officials to the *scam."

You may be correct if you dash over the border and obtain a Sinaloa Only multiple entry temporary vehicle permit and that your title is not checked upon exiting Mexico nor checked upon entering the United States. But, if you need a temporary vehicle import permit that allows you to travel the length of Mexico, and you want the $250.00 dollars (depends on value of motorcycle) refunded to the credit card you used to purchase this temporary vehicle import permit, the Mexican officials will notice that the bike entered Mexico with a different name on the title and would not be permitted to leave Mexico and thus could not enter the States.

And, the majority of Mexico/US border crossing now have cameras that capture the plate numbers on all entering vehicles and this information is fed into a computer.

When you are asked for your passport at the US border and a border official were to check the foreign tourist (buyers) name falsely listed on the title with the foreign tourist (sellers) name on the actual title, there would be a problem. Not that this is done regularly, but this possibility does present a risky situation. Your "no sweat" attitude speaks directly to your lack of ethical considerations.

Your characterization of the border officials and your statement that they are racially profiling travelers is a generalization that may of may not be the experience of others who have ridden a motorcycle from Argentina to the States, Especially, if it is a British or Kiwi, or Japanese riding a motorcycle with plates issued in Kansas.

And, you are incorrect, and misleading others....many States not only require that the license plate of the motorcycle be turned in and a new one is issued each time the title is transferred but, like Arizona the majority of States require that the seller and buyer be physically present for a title transfer. Or, that signatures be witnessed and validated by a "Notary Public" certified in the State that has issued the title... Please check your data before posting... And,...several states require an "inspection" of the motorcycle and proof that the buyer has insurance in the State,before any title transfer can take place... So please check title transfer requirement State by State before claiming that you do not "take what I post seriously."

Please do your research. If you want, you can find the title transfer regulations by visiting the web sites of each States motor vehicle departments. I have been there and done that. Have you?

You may have missed reading my EDIT:

EDITED NOTE: I knew I was forgetting one more question. I assume the foreign tourist buyer will purchase insurance by presenting the falsified title with his/her name on it? This would enable the foreign tourist buyer to have an insurance card to present to police, if asked. But, if an accident occurred or there was bodily injury caused by the foreign tourist buyer, the title would be checked/verified very carefully by attorneys working for the insurance company and possibly by attorneys working for the injured party.

Once it was discovered that the title had been falsified, and a check of the vin # of the bike revealed that the bike was still owned by the foreign tourist (seller), then any liability caused by the foreign tourist (buyer) would also fall on the foreign tourist (seller). And, the foreign tourist (seller) insurance might have expired or been cancelled.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS, ONCE THE INSURANCE COMPANY DISCOVERS THE TITLE HAD BEEN FALSIFIED, THE INSURANCE IS INVALID AND THEREFORE, THE FOREIGN TOURIST (BUYER) WILL BE RIDING AT GREAT RISK WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REAL/ VALID INSURANCE COVERAGE.

4. Please advise how to handle the insurance problem?

If anyone needs to be convinced that insurance is an absolute necessity while riding in Mexico Central or South America, please read my post POST TO LUNAPIX COPIED BELOW:

"Hi Lunapix, it is true you might not be asked to prove you have insurance unless you have an accident.

But, I have lived in Mexico for 3 years and as recently as a couple years ago rode through Mexico. Sit down, my boy, and let me explain the facts of life.

If you are involved in an accident with substantial property damage or any injury that requires hospitalization, here are some facts to consider.

The Mexican police, on the streets, are not trained or allowed to determine fault. They generally arrest everyone involved in a serious accident, who does not have insurance. This is done to prevent anyone escaping responsibility for the accident. If you have insurance, the police will verify that insurance with the insurance company, and unless the accident involves, significant property damage, a death or possibility of death, you probably will not be detained.

If you are arrested, for not having insurance, or because the accident is very serious, you might be in a Mexican jail for weeks, even months, waiting for your turn to go before a judge, who is qualified to determine fault in the accident.

Without insurance, you stay in jail until the judge sorts out who was at fault.

If you have insurance, your insurance agent may be able to have you released from jail, while you wait your turn before the judge. I have known of foreign tourists being held for 6 months before their involvement in an accident could be sorted out by a judge.

Please consider these facts, before deciding to buy or not to buy insurance before entering Mexico."

[B]Markharf, and others who have posted here, I am looking forward to your suggestions regarding the above risks and how to handle the insurance question. Thanks
[/B]
xfiltrate Ride Free, Eat, Drink and Be Careful and buy insurance damit.

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com

Sorry, but I'm reporting my direct experience. I can't possibly describe yours. The fact that they appear to contradict each other in certain respects makes me wonder.

It now sounds like your objections might be less practical and more ethical, which is fine. I wasn't addressing that set of issues (i.e., the morality of bending or breaking laws) because I had not noticed you or the original poster doing so. If that's what you want, fine....but you may wish to leave out all the other stuff for the sake of clarity.

That's just a suggestion in case you're interested in getting your point across.

I can't really make out what your objections might be to my characterizations of Homeland Security personnel or to my descriptions of all the vehicles I've bought and sold or all the borders I've crossed. I do note that you seem to have formed definitive opinions about my moral sense, which is certainly your privilege.

Safe journeys!

Mark

Markharf, thank you for your sincere and well concieved reply. It was properly understood. I do owe you an apology if you interpreted my remarks as being characteristic of your general sense of ethics. I was speaking only to that aspect of your ethics as characterized by your posts here.

It's a tough world, and we are all just trying to survive. I had an export business based in Mexico for three years. I exported hand made chairs and tables for restaurant chains in the States, stone fountains and tiles.

Sometimes, unethical companies would out bid me, because they fabricated export documents, allowing them to pay less or no import tax, and perhaps my own ethics lost me substantial income, only because I always abided by regulations.

I applaud your obvious skill at earning money by trafficking motos and vehicles. Yes, we are different, but our differences are only represented in this small example. I am sure we are more alike than different.

I hope we meet one day and discover more common ground. Still, I would like to know how you handle the insurance problem and what States you refer to that do not require the seller and buyer to be present for title transfers.

xfiltrate Ride Free, Eat, Drink and Be Careful

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com

I gotta agree with xfiltrate on this. Forging documents and riding without insurance are pretty bad ideas in my book too and very selfish in addition.


Sherlock

The way I understand it is that any notario can write a "power of attourney" allowing the new "user" to ride and or sell the bike in all countries listed on the "POA." This will only work with another traveler, because any local would soon get stopped and would be stuck with the import taxes.

It is very common down here for someone to travel with a POA and a title in the original owner´s name. I am doing it and have had no problems.

BTW, I could be completely wrong about this, but it has worked for me.

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"I applaud your obvious skill at earning money by trafficking motos and vehicles."

Well, I appreciate applause as much as anyone....but no, I'm not earning money buying or selling; I'm just living the American life, where car ownership features prominently from an early age. Nor am I buying and selling across borders, although I might take this route next year when I'm in S.A. with what will by then be an elderly 2007 KLR (probably >80,000 miles).

"I am sure we are more alike than different."

This is the norm everywhere, though sometimes it's difficult to admit, even to ourselves.

"I would like to know....what States you refer to that do not require the seller and buyer to be present for title transfers."

I can only describe my personal experience. I've bought or sold in five states--New York, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Colorado, Washington--mostly multiple times in each. I've registered cars and trucks in two more states--California and Arizona. We're talking about a span of more than thirty years, so regulations may have changed in some locations, but at any rate I've never been required to have a seller present in order to register a sale.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, which I believe involved a vaguely related topic.

enjoy,

Mark

Although it was a dutch registered car, not US, the procedure of leaving Argentina is the same. I sold it to travellers. They crossed the argentinian border to Brazil and handed in the argentinian entry permit and showed the old vehicle documents(a copy) in my name. No questions asked but the plan was if they would than just tell them I lended them the car (had a nicely stamped authorisation for this case).

Markharf, sorry for straying away. I do understand that you have "bought or sold in 5 of the United States, an I understand that you have registered vehicles in California and Arizona.

The topic here is, and I may be wrong, for I do have a propensity for staying off topic, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A UNITED STATES registered motorcycle title to be legally transferred, if the motorcycle is in Chile or Argentina and the seller is a foreign tourist and the buyer is also a foreign tourist and both seller and buyer are in Chile or Argentina.

In the majority of States I researched, the "foreign" owner simply signs the back of the title or signs a specified title transfer form provided by the State where the motorcycle is registered, and here is the catch, in every State I researched....the seller's signature must be notarized by a certified notary of the State that issued the title, or be notarized by a certified notary of the State where the motorcycle is to be registered.

Example: PART ONE Sam, Joe and Barbara

Foreign motor tourist Sam has a beautiful BMW, purchased and paid for in Arizona, that he rode to Panama, and then had it flown to Santiago, Chile. He had planned to continue his tour of South American countries, but the collapse of the US economy precluded him having expected profits from the gradual sale of his stock portfolio and he found himself destitute, until he could get back to California and earn some money.

Destitute foreign motor tourist Sam meets wealthy foreign tourist Joe at an Ex Pat bar in Santiago. Sam, over a few s explains his troubles to his new friend Joe. Joe considers the matter and says "Sam, why don't you sell your BMW to me?"

Not wealthy by luck nor family fortune, but by his own intelligence and hard work, Joe begins considering the effort involved in transferring the BMW's Arizona title into his name, no, wait, he does not want an Arizona title, he wants to register the BMW in Colorado, where he lives most of the year.

"Ok, let's see the title , says Joe." He notices there are no liens (loans) on the bike and that indeed on reverse of the title are instructions for title transfer. Seems simple enough, Sam just needs to sign the BMW's Arizona title on the space provided and indicate the milage on the odometer, but wait, oh no, Sam's must sign in the presence of a State certified Notary Public.

Joe immediately considers the possibility of finding an Arizona certified Notary Public somewhere in Santiago, Chile, for he knows the State of Arizona will not release the Arizona title of the BMW unless Sam's signature was witnessed by a Notary Public.

Just by chance, slightly tipsy, but very attractive foreign tourist Barbara, had eyed handsome Joe through the front window of the bar as he backed in and dismounted his big BMW. She also noted that the BMW sported the familiar desert brown Arizona plate, and she was from Phoenix, Arizona.

Joe noticed Barbara eyeing Sam, before Joe even knew Barbara existed, and not one to miss an opportunity, even for a friend, Joe motioned the waiter to invite Barbara to his table for a drink. Barbara accepted the offer and immediately proclaimed to Joe and Sam, I am from Arizona too.

Joe, said "right, and I suppose you are a certified Notary Public as well." Barbara, a little taken back said, why yes, I work for a bank in Phoenix and I have my Notary stamp right here in my purse. To the astonishment of Joe and Sam, Barbara was a certified Notary Public of the State of Arizona.

The BMW is the last topic on Barbara's mind and Joe has an early business meeting, so Joe excuses himself, but not before inviting Sam and Barbara to dinner the following evening... and, now alone, Sam and Barbara begin by talking all things Arizona, then all about Joe's journey, the economy and about anything else that comes up, until the sun does come up.

When alone in his hotel room, Joe says to himself, "OK, I am in Chile. I am considering buying an expensive BMW that Sam had flown in from Panama. OK, customs here will have Sam listed on the temporary vehicle import permit, I will, have a notarized Arizona title with Sam's notarized signature indicating he has sold the BMW to me, and I suppose Sam will fly back to Arizona, maybe with Barbara and get back to work."

"I would like to ride the BMW immediately, but according to the temporary import permit issued by Chile, I am not authorized to ride it in Chile nor am I the owner of the BMW. What to do? What to do?"

"No, Sam would have to exit the bike from Chile. Of course I (Joe) would pay the air freight, to Colorado, but no, the bike will be registered in Sam's name when Denver customs clears the BMW from the airline, Sam would have to clear customs with the bike.

"This is becoming complicated! Perhaps I should reconsider my offer to buy Sam's BMW."

END PART ONE

PART TWO SOON

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

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Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com

Damn Xfiltrate, I felt like I was reading an SAT question in your above post.


I have seen the falsifying of a temporary import permit and title work in Argentina. My Australian friend sold his bike to a Polish biker this way. As long as your work is good they will never question you. I have to disagree with what Xfiltrate said above about the customs guys cross checking you by computer and finding out that it is not the same as the original. At all the crossings I made in Argentina I found that they never cross checked me in the computer. The only time they did look up my original temporary import permit was when I could not find my temporary import permit and it had to be faxed from the last place I entered Argentina in Patagonia.

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