Actually we are a couple. Nikos & Georgia from Xalkida, Evoia island. Glad to hear about your origins . We will be in Argentina sometime in 2019. We travel very slowly and let our visa expire before moving to the next country. We would love to meet up at some point!

My sympathy & compassion goes to them who are legal & legit and are just part of the horror story of confiscation just because their vehicle was among the others with potentially expired/ fake TIPs etc.

For god shake, we are all grown ups and must take over our responsibilities and collateral damages.. even by paying in money (which is the less harmful, yet irresponsible action).

__________________
The Pin Project | Overland Greece

My characterisation of people in Uniforms is driven partly from personal experience and partly from a couple of years of moderating all the entries coming on to the ioverlander database where there are countless stories of entrenched corruption by those in power. That isn't to say that the majority of officials are corrupt but of course it only takes a couple of cases to tarnish the whole system.
There must be a reason why entries on iOverlander about corrupt police in Chile are virtually non-existent while far too many entries for police stops in Bolivia and Argentina and to a lesser extent, Peru, has "CORRUPT" somewhere in the name. Colombia and Ecuador it is rare while a couple of Central American countries get lots of mentions. Brazil is pretty much absent from the corruption list and Uruguay seems to be on a par with Chile. For the countries that I have been through, my experience mirrors the consensus view even though I haven't necessarily been personally targeted. I actually remove some of the "corrupt" words in the title when the description doesn't justify the accusation, but many deserve the rap so they stay.

What I did say is that in many of the countries, at every interaction with anyone in uniform, it is a constant concern as to whether this one or that one is going to put their hand out or try something on, or deliberately misinterpret the law or whatever and .that tends to take the enjoyment out of traveling. In USA and Canada, Australia and the whole of greater Europe out as far as Turkey that has NEVER been a concern. In the first group, officials are corrupt until proven clean and in the second group they are clean until proven corrupt. Big difference in resultant attitude by travelers towards officials. Here on HUBB the same thing happens. There is still a sticky about a police stop on the way up to the falls and that tarnishes peoples perceptions even now DESPITE it being a couple of years since a new entry was posted. Perhaps time to unsticky that thread.

Must say though I have posed the question a few times - why is it that police on the roadside are always described as corrupt (even when there was no adverse interaction) when adding entries to ioverlander, but the ones who help travellers in the towns and let them use the police compound and showers and internet and escort them to safe overnighting spots are all described as guardian angels.

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

No point in suggesting the owners of these places should bear any blame either.

The usual sequence of events is a hotel or restaurant owner is asked by a customer if they can stay the night. No problem usually. Is it OK to put it on iOverlander? No problem. Then more and more turn up and still no problem. Technically the hotel owner is breaking the law because he is now operating a RV park without a license. No problem because nobody complained and the local police eat there occasionally so .... Next step is an overlander asks if it is OK to leave the truck there for a couple of weeks. Sure, no problem. Pretty soon - and you can blame iOverlander for that if you like - it is 5 years later and there are twenty vehicles parked for up to a year. EVERYONE is happy.

Who is to blame?

AND if the story I read about an overlander asking aduana if it was OK to park their vehicle in BA while they did a day trip to Uruguay on the ferry and was refused permission was true, then ....

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

A reminder...

__________________
"For sheer delight there is nothing like altitude; it gives one the thrill of adventure
and enlarges the world in which you live," Irving Mather (1892-1966)

So, any update for those who have no FB?

__________________
The Pin Project | Overland Greece

I hope the person who posted this on Faceook dont mind - There was a meeting on the 18th this month between the aduana and the involved storage and one vehicle owner and their respective lawyers. The lawyers of the storage asked for proof that storage of foreign vehicles without the owners present is illegal - which the lawyers of Aduana couldnt present. So the case is sent to a higher court. Its presumed it will take at least 10 days more.

To be contiued...

__________________
In the end everything will be fine. If its not fine its not the end....

For updates see this post on FB, Facebook Post

Which is on the Overlanding the Americas Facebook Group

Further to certain individuals taking over this thread with wild speculation i think its safe to say the best non opinionated factual information will be in the group above.

because i can not see the group on facebook i would be very happy about some current informations here!

Thank you!

i heard/read that the affected persons got their vehicle back?!

Has anybody more information and/or can confirm that?

Latest is that there is a five day window for the Aduana to appeal the finding and 15 to 20 days after that any vehicle covered by a valid TVIP will be returned. Strongly recommended to be there at the time the vehicles are released

No indication as to whether there will be any changes to the system, but I'd say it would be on the cards.

Cost to people involved - $500 share of lawyers fees, airfairs over (maybe three airfares for some) and weeks of accommodation costs.

As to whether Argentina is a perfectly safe alternative. Depending on which aduana official you talk to the answer will be Yes, or no, which is precisely the same range of answers previously given at borders by Uruguay aduana

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

Just a slight update - the letter my info was based on apparently only applies to 5 vehicles held at Sandras. Others are expected to follow but nothing mentioned yet

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

An earlier message said that owners of one large group of owners chipped in several hundred dollars each to pay for a lawyer. Probably it was the original confiscatees at the hotel

As for Argentina, one poster on the fb page who left Uruguay at the time of the confiscations reorted his conversation at the Arg border, and the officer was adamant that while the legal position in Uruguay might be a but murky, that was not the case in Arg where leaving vehicles is strictly against the law.
as always, your mileage may vary, but 2hat never chqnges in S America is that every day you interact with officials you get to experience new surprises. Some good and some decidedly not so good

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

Doubt it. The vehicles confiscated were all typical collection of overlanding vehicles ranging from a motorbike to a very expensive truck.

Friend owns one of the original vehicles stored at the hotel and he is not aware of any connection with drug cartels. Given a lot of people have been cooling their heels for several weeks doing little but ask questions, I'd think any conspiracy theories would have emerged long ago. Are there any vehicles unaccounted for at the hotel or at Sandras???

This is a summary if his report as at today

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map

At least I am not involved in this.

Fairly simple xfiltrate - just compare the timeline of the newspaper article you referred to (Caracas, Monday November 20,2017), to the timeline of the original article and aduana website information posted a couple of months ago. No connection whatsoever. There were actually far more than 17 overlander vehicles confiscated, but the photos of the first batch of confiscations were clearly published on at least two sites many weeks ago, and I easily recognised two of those vehicles and they do not belong to drug barons, mafia dons or any other underworld figure real or imaginary. Perhaps the motorbike did belong to the criminals but if so, they weren't going to get away very fast.

First article is at http://www.rubenredaelli.com/mas-de-...ia-por-aduana/

And the second one is at http://www.aduanas.gub.uy/innovaport...-helvecia.html Fecha: 15/09/2017

Conspiracy theories????

As for legal opinions, they are prone to a very high failure rate when put to the test. On average 50% fail to win.



The only boats these vehicles have been associated with are either the one that took them across the Darien Gap or the Grimaldi roro from Hamburg

The official Aduana site said (via google translate)
Note - 18 vehicles, not 17 plus of course a few more at Sandras place. extra Mercosur, not local

Your source said but of course the overlander vehicles seized don't belong to locals. If they did, how would the foreigners who do own them be getting them back after a court case. One of the vehicles I inspected back in Germany just after it was built and I have since followed its path by tracker all over Europe and South America, including periods of several months stored in other countries so I don't think it is one of the 17 you are referring to.

__________________
Tony
Click here for Travel Photos & Travel Map