I thought this thread had legs, and it's a better read than some magazines

Although the TWO guy may personally have a great background, I stick to my original point that nothing in his professional approach is likely to make me want to fork out 4 or 5 quid for a magazine.

There are some great stories here and on Advrider (in fact 18,771 reports on Advrider) and nothing about asking around, offering 150 notes to people inspires me that the mag are likely to produce anything better.

Honestly, some people!!

It disappoints me that anyone could look at this thread and be less than pleased that they are being offered £150 for their article. You are not being offered a job with the magazine and I doubt many of you are full-time professional writers who depend on this as your sole source of income. It is just an opportunity to share your experience with others. Isn't this something that you would want to do anyway for nothing? There are many stories displayed on this site and you weren't offered anything for those, yet you still did it with pride and enthusiasm. For me the whole idea of bike travel is to enjoy it, record it in some fashion then tell others what a great time I had. It is sad that when some people are presented with an opprtunity they immediately look to see how they can squeeze even more from it.

Yes, TWO is a magazine that exists on it's sales income and the better the magazine is then the bigger the sales and the bigger the profits etc....., but that shouldn't deter ordinary decent people from contributing out of the kindness of their heart. What price would you put on your article being published for all your friends to see?

Shame on those who feel that £150 isn't enough. I'll be sending an article to them and if they publish it I'll be delighted. If it isn't good enough then maybe I can take great comfort in the fact that I had a priceless experience on the trip itself.

Chris

__________________


"Life is too short to drink cheap wine!"

What an interesting thread!

I'm not a professional writer, far from it, but if you think my articles show promise or could give me an idea of the style of writing you require, then I'd be happy to let you publish them.

But I don't want any money, all I ask is that you make a donation to 'The Mines Advisory Group' MAG | Mines Advisory Group.

I'd feel better if you gave the money to the people and country that I'm writing about.

Pete

....and all you whingers could do worse than take a leaf out of pete123's book.

That's a very noble request Pete, but I suspect there will be many self-proclaimed "experts" here (whose writing ability probably isn't even up to local rag standard anyway!!) who can give you 100 reasons why you are selling yourself short and should therefore boycott the idea of sharing your experiences.

Chris

__________________


"Life is too short to drink cheap wine!"

Thanks Chris, you're probably right but 'Oi dunt wan no trubble meester!'

Sure, professional writers want to be paid for their work, they studied hard, struggled to achieve and they deserve proper recompense. But I don't think that's what TWO was looking for? Surely there was no hidden agenda. A good story was required for an occasional article in a bike magazine. I didn't see any ambiguity in that.

If I may, let me explain my reasoning to all. For many years, I spannered for a race team. We started at club level, did well and the rider secured good results. He won the New Era cup and things escalated. Next we would be competing in British Superstock, Ireland Road Races, the IOM TT and then the world. We went to Macau, Daytona and rode for Phase One Yamaha at Le Mans. But all the time we were paying for it out of our own pockets. I met great people, had a great time and was happy just to be a part of it. I learnt a lot, and was a better person for it. My point is, the trip isn't free but the experience is. What a great time we had! The guys I drank with didn't want paying for their tales. I met some wonderful people and made friends for life. Isn't that the same with bike touring? If you have a tale, tell it. You'll enjoy it! The best things in life are free.

That is actually a very fair counterpoint Chris... like you say, for most people (ie. amateur writers/bloggers, which as you say the original request was presumably aimed at), just seeing their story in print and being able to share it with a wider audience is more than enough 'reward'...

Thanks for putting it in perspective.

However, I would still uphold that if the quality of the writing/photography is sufficiently high enough to warrant publication in a mainstream magazine, then it is also worth a fair payment?

xxx

Hi JMo (& piglet)

Yes, I agree, if the standard of writing is good enough then perhaps it DOES warrant fair payment.

Before I wrote my original reply to this thread I had a browse through some of the previous posts written by some people who seemed to have the most vociferous opposition to the original idea, and believe me, the standard of writing does not suggest that these people are experts. The chances of someone writing a "copy ready" story are remote and it only those who DO earn their living from writing who are likely to meet that criteria. The whole idea of the request was surely to get a "biker's" story, someone who goes off on their travels because they want the experience and love what they're doing. If they want a perfectly written story they'll send one of their staff on a trip with the main purpose of writing about it.

My main opposition to those who replied in a negative manner is simple: some appear to think that just because they go on a trip it makes them experts in their field and this in turn means they should be paid handsomely in return. Put it this way, if you go to your Mum's house and she asks you to change a plug are you going to tell her afterwards that you want £50 for doing it coz that's what a REAL electrician would want for his call out charge and time spent?? Mind you, with some people here I wouldn't be surprised if they did!!!

Chris

__________________


"Life is too short to drink cheap wine!"

Some of us write articles in a different language then we use on the HUBB.

That’s not true, but the more they have to work on your article the less you get paid.

For most magazines it will not be possible to send a journo away for some months to make an article. We are talking about 10-20.000 € each month and not a lot of magazines can afford it.
Basically when you sell articles you ask for 5-10% of what the magazine would have paid if they send their own people. Is it to much?


I don’t agree, and I’m not an expert.
My main motivation for this discussion is that because some people work without getting paid it’s harder for the rest to get paid. Because of this the best writers has to do something else and quality of the magazines drop.

I’m self-employed and I don’t charge family or close friends for my services.
But I do charge professional customers, is that wrong? No, it’s not because my customers use me as a tool to make money.

The day people start to do my work for free, I have a real problem, do you?

I've been following this discussion (and past ones which it much resembles) silently. Like one poster I've been puzzled that some of those complaining most loudly clearly lack professional level writing skills. Perhaps it's true that standards are different for forums...but I'm a dubious sort who'd feel more credulous were there evidence at hand...and I'd certainly not tout my skills loudly in public while offering concrete evidence of their absence.

This aside, I find the larger question far more intriguing: do I, as a hypothetical non-professional, owe it to the pros to keep silent? Should I refrain from submitting my (hypothetical) written work or photography at less than professional scale in order to protect those who feel they're worth far more than I? It's an interesting question

Well, what happens if I apply the same standards to other realms: shall I not re-shingle my roof when it leaks, to protect the carpenter who might suffer for lack of work (or, a better analogy, to prop up his wages by increasing demand for his services)? When I was younger and more vigorous I used to rake leaves, shovel snow and help people move households to and from the neighborhood; was I unfairly undercutting the professionals who were then charging substantially more than I?

What about later in life, when I became a tradesman myself; should I have responded angrily to those who offered what was generally lesser quality work for far less money than I? I mean, instead of what I actually did, which was to figure out how to offer what they could not, and to make the case to my employers that this made me worth what I charged, and preferable to those who charged less. Successfully, I might add.

I'm prepared to question my assumptions, but at the moment I continue to believe that if the professional laborer, carpenter, photographer and/or writer cannot offer more value in some recognizable form than I, the not-entirely-hypothetical amateur, well, it's not my job to preserve their earning power for them. Rather, it's wholly their job to find some way to capitalize on their presumably better skills, connections, insight, experience....or whatever it is that makes them believe themselves deserving of a certain level of compensation. If the market (a dubious concept indeed, but useful at times) doesn't agree with their elevated self-assessment, it is not up to me to prove them correct.

In the present instance, if there are people here with something special to offer--something which has real value to the reading public--by all means sell it to whoever is willing to pay for it. Some of you are already doing this. But if what you're offering isn't worth very much to those holding all the cards, or if a great many people on any random website could do just as good a job as you.....well, maybe you won't be able to earn a living as a writer. To get paid you've got to offer something for which there's a demand, something special. It's not enough to complain that other people are doing it more cheaply, and that they really ought to stop.

The problem with all this is that I agree, in a general sort of way, that the situation with regard to writing standards pretty much sucks. There is a lot of written work out there, and most of it is badly conceived, badly written, badly edited, badly executed in more ways than I can count. The reading public---which includes all of us, I gather---doesn't have much patience or taste, and we don't look to be developing any in the near future. It's a shame that good writers aren't paid more, and that poor writers soak up way more than their share of the limited amount of money available. It's a shame that the good magazines are all going belly-up, and that mediocrity prevails over class and substance. There's a lot of shame to go around, no doubt about it.

Yet this doesn't alter anything I've written above; if you want to earn a living at writing (or anything else), you've got to offer something that others don't, not try to persuade them to refrain from competing with you. And you've got to connect with someone who's willing to pay you for that something special. At least, that's how I've always seen it.

I hope this post, rambling and disjointed though it may be, is taken in the constructive spirit in which it is intended. No insult or disrespect to other posters or their stated positions is intended....and I'll look forward to hearing more from any and all.

Safe journeys!

Mark

Wow, same planet, different worlds.

Why do you think that magazines should pay freelance contributors 5-10% of what they would pay their own people? Don't you think that magazines will pay, and should pay, what the market requires?

And if some people "work without getting paid" it means they are doing it because they enjoy it....it is not really work to them...people who do the same work and demand to be well paid should expect to be very disappointed, because other people enjoy the "work" enough to do it for free, so of course it is "harder for the rest to get paid".

What other sort of writing should go in a magazine ? Case closed.

And you haven't mentioned photos. No magazine in the world should consider publishing a story without great photos.

And Chris1200, you haven't argued against the basic point that there are thousands of very entertaining ride reports all over the web. If a publisher wants people to fork out 5 quid for a magazine, then excellence, high standards and professionalism is the only way to go, not trawling the web fishing for ideas from amateurs. Otherwise, the web will get stonger and mags will continue their decline as they make little investment in editorial.

Cheers

Dick

I was simply quite happy to see myself in print and get a foot on the bottom rung of the ladder. Even if it is un/low paid, it gets your name known amongst people who have some influence in the business. I'm not a pro, so the way I see it, I can't expect pro's rates. BUT... I can string a sentence together, and so I am hopeful that this opportunity will lead to something else.

This offer from TWO is perfect for someone like me - it gives an opportunity to people who otherwise may not get one - surely encouraging grass roots talent is a positive thing?

Birdy

As Chris1200 pointed out earlier... that is pretty much the crux of it - good for you!

xxx

I'm new to the Hubb and forums in general, and while I've found this thread interesting, it has become a tad unsettling.

People are complaining about and trying to justify what they are worth and I find this self interest somewhat puerile. I buy magazines every week and it is I who decides what you are worth with my wallet. If the buying public doesn't like what they are reading then they stop buying. A good editor/owner will detect the falling sales and a successful editor/owner will react and revise his contributors or content.

I stand by my previous comment that professional writers deserve to be paid well for their labours, but it's a tough business and your work needs to be special if you are going to make a successful living nowadays. Birdy had the right idea, get the exposure that was offered and move forward. Isn't that how most of us started our careers? We were thankful for the opportunities given us, let's not complain when someone is offered the same.
Btw, I love reading your articles Birdy and I'll take any magazine that you are featured in.

Pete

I’m not sure how to make this clear… The reason I ask people to get paid is because otherwise they make it worse for other people to get paid. This again makes good writers quit and the publications get even more boring.
If you think this is “trying justifying what I’m worth” that’s up to you. It might be out of self interest because I want to read good magazines.

Other than that I don’t care if people work for free, but I don’t work unless I get paid.
I would also say if an article is good enough to get printed then it’s good enough to get paid.

In an ideal world, yes..
But because people don’t want to pay much for mags the editors often use cheaper articles and increase the ads. This is also a common trick to make the numbers look better if they plan to sell their business.
Long term planning is not what it used to be and “decreasing cost” is trendier then “increasing quality”.