[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roman:
[B]Richard,
local guides making a big difference to the safety of desert travel.....

Point well taken and you may well be right, although local guides haven't helped in the routine robberies in Niger and there haven't been similar situations in recent years in Algeria with which to test whether local guides would have helped the fate of the 31.

I suspect that the point being made about local guides by the tourist agencies has more to do with a marketing opportunity on their part than anything else. As such, my feeling is that the moment they chose to make this point was ill-judged on their part.

The priority is to sort out a mess that clearly hasn't come about through someone using GPS or holding a map upside-down or, incredibly, a sand storm that seems to have gone on for 2 months! Such comments in the media just derail other well intentioned efforts and have now irritated me enough to write the earlier comments!

A good guide can be valuable and make travel very interesting if you share a language and can get them to talk, but separating them from bogus dudes looking for a lift is the problem, as many of us have found across the Sahara from the Beach piste to the Gilf. This is why many independent travellers choose to rely on their own common sense and navigational resources for most of their tours. And let us not forget that a guide is not needed nor expected along Route A5 or on just about any piste in Algeria, despite the apparent 'dismay' of local authorities that the groups went unguided. The only place a guide is expected is in the eastern Tassili Park.
I know other Saharan agencies who have experimented and given up (or persevered despite unreliability) with local guides. Most know their own 'tramlines' very well but take them off them and they freak out. I heard of it recently on the Djado plateau and saw it in the Gilf.

It is very true what you say Roman that as a traveller one can never read the full picture of what really goes on in these southern Algerian towns, but if the danger was locally known (it seems plausible) why was the route not closed? The on-and-off closure of A5's northern entrance at Quatre Chemins from last October does not really explain this. While in the reverse direction there are many points where A5 could have easily been blocked by a checkpoint just a short distance west of Illizi. The guys could have gone home for dinner every night

On another note, I find it odd that now the missing are said to be "in the canyons and gullies" west of Illizi, it has taken so long to find them as this area has been searched over and over from the very start.

Still, a positive outcome looks promising so who cares!

Ch

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I find the remarks of the European press and the moderator of this forum inappropriate. In particular, CS's statement "Still, a positive outcome looks promising so who cares!" This is lunacy.

Islamic extremist kidnappers are a worldwide plague. Kidnappings in Iran, Lebanon, Algeria, and the Phillipines have almost always ended badly. In this case, the tourists failed to take basic precautions, like avoidance, and went into a well known war zone. Over 100,000 innocent people have died in Algeria since the civil war began.

Like it or not, the moslem terrorists do not care that citizens of Germany, France, and Austria do not support the war on terror. To the islamists this is more evidence of the effete and inane Euro-poser attitude that has allowed them to conquer much of Europe without a fight.

Simply put, travellers are not welcome in this area. The poor folks that are missing deserve a decent response from their governments, not ransom money!

The US was blamed immediately for this problem because they supposedly degraded the GPS signals. What gall! This blood libel is very telling, anyone that understands this technology knows that this is bogus. The scapegoating among the Euro-press and others is shameless and only attempts to deflect critism from the travellers that went into this area knowingly. And more so, seeks to deflect criticsm from the EU government's weak response so far.

Schroeder's government will never act with the authority (ie military force) needed to handle this situation.

Compare this to the US response to the Phillipine hostage taking, the US mobilized over two thousand soldiers to find two kidnapped missionaries in the Phillipines. The Abu-Sayef leaders were killed and one of the missing was rescued.

Life is not a road-trip. The pathetic disconnect of most of the posters here is very disturbing. The travellers here are preparing for holiday, a trip through the desert that they feel somehow entitled to perform without risk or sacrifice. Contrast this with the historic march to Baghdad performed by coalition forces. If the hostages' governments were on the right side of history, surely the victims would be a much higher priority and the rescue much more likely to end well, like that of Pfc. Jessica Lynch.

(Since this will likely be deleted, I will post the text on US blogs for all to read.)

I recall that your first post, 3ID, irritated a good number of people and this is either a wind up or off the deep end.

like me, you're entitled to your opinion, but wisdom stems from listening and reflecting rather than having an opinion for all occasions. political, personal and religious rants like yours don't have any place on this forum. you're clearly patriotic, but I believe you're letting America down by talking such hostile crap. I'll refrain from sharing my political views, but note that I don't agree with your anti-muslim sentiments: all extremists are bad news.

Deleted? - maybe. Ignored? - most likely.

Rgds,
Roman (UK)

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Roman (UK)

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'Still, a positive outcome looks promising so who cares!'

I meant: who cares about my passing observation that it's taken them 2 months to find them just 100 + kms out of Illizi when one considers the good news that they are alive and will hopefully be released. Maybe it wasn't obvious.
I feel that here on the forum the eventual wellbeing of the missing (some of who I met just before it happened) is more relevant than the motivations of the still-unknown kidnappers, Europoser reactions or even the fact that I'll have to put my grandmother back on eBay this winter (she's used to it).

As for the rest of Tex's defensive, ignorant or confused ravings, wekk they were clearly gagging for an eruption but are irrelevant here. I thought I'd leave them up for a bit of sport as the forum is kind or quiet at the moment (Sam, don't get any ideas! ;-).
One wonders why he bothers boiling over on this specilised Sahara travel forum when he clearly has no experience or interest in Saharan travel? Was it because German TV dumped him or is the Black Flag Cafe closed for fumigation?

I've come across this mushy-brained hostility towards independent Sahara travellers on other forums (not to mention UNATA's self-serving outburts). In the overall scheme of things what are they getting so worked up about what we do in our holidays or even for a living? Is it envy?

These abductions raise several interesting questions about the motivation for Sahara travel and the ethics of adventure touring. But if there's enough interest I may include the Historic March on Baghdad as a new route in the next edition - with GPS waypoints of course!

Ch

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First - the average Sahara traveller is much better prepared than a tourist foying to Tamanrasset, doing his camel ride and flying back.

Second - there are areas in Algeria we are avoiding for several years due to security reasons.

Third - now the unthinkable happened, and to explain afterwards how it could have been avoided is similar to explanations how 9/11 could have been avoided. You are always wiser afterwards...nobody of us thought of Algeria as instable as Afghanistan, and today, I'm no longer sure.

As there are no official statements, rumors are overwhelming, that's today's request for information, and it is frustrating for most of us that most we get is pure desinformation. But would anyone inform the enemy of his steps via mass media? Be it Irak or be it the Wilaya of Illizi...

European and Algerian officials are doing their best (with much more than 2.000 forces in action), and hopefully we will see 31 returning safely.

Peter

No worries Chris, not about to chuck in another of my occasional, 'close to the mark' topics!

Although, I was just wondering if 3ID hit the wrong key whilst registering (can't help feeling that a Q would be better placed than the D).

Sam.

Senor Scott (Gentleman and Scholar).
Can you help? I wish to undertake a historic march to the Gates of Asda and am concerned I may get lost and also encounter the marauding friendly fire of local pigeons. Could you supply GPS way points to help? Maybe in your next edition?
Thanking you very dearly,
Your ever obedient servant,
ChrisB

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Who the hell is that 3IQ guy anyway? he obviously hasnt a clue whats going in reality. I bet he's never been on Saharan trip to know what it is, and what it isn't.
I cant comprehend why he would write on this forum, he doesnt have anything helpful to say.

OK, now I feel better. I didnt even swear.
Karim

Chris, I want those waypoints...

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He's a troll. More information about trollign bulleting boards - here:

http://world.std.com/~Infinity/right...lttrollFAQ.htm

Rgds,
Roman (UK)

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Roman (UK)

Update: Randsom negotiations.

In German:
Algier/Paris (dpa) - Die 31 verschwundenen Sahara-Touristen sollen nach Angaben des französischen Rundfunksenders RFI von Schmugglern entführt worden sein.

Zurzeit werde über ein Lösegeld von mehreren Millionen Dollar verhandelt, meldete der Sender am Mittwoch. Er berief sich dabei auf Angaben der algerischen Behörden.

Die Touristen, die seit Monaten spurlos verschwunden sind, seien wohlauf und würden in Südalgerien im Dreieck zwischen Illizi, Tamanrasset und Djanet festgehalten. Sie seien nicht wie zuvor befürchtet in den Händen von Islamisten oder Mitgliedern des Terrornetzwerkes von El Kaida.

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from the German above.....

the people holding the 31 are looking for several million dollars. They do not appear to be Islamic extremists or linked to Al Qaeda.....

my comment: the affiliation of these people seems to change with the frequency of a fuel pump cam.

To all

As always when the news starts to get thin, people start to bicker and argue (or is it debate). I would suggest we all grow up and stop the bickering and get back to the original thread of this topic i.e. 31 fellow travellers in need of support and help!!

Who care sof individuals speculation and slanted thoughts. Let our thoughts and prayers get back to thos ein their hour of need.

Can I ask that this forum, if it is to maintain it respectability, refrain from retorts to such easily laid bombs of diversification.

So I ask, can anyone please provide up date on the important matters of this situation. After all as far as I am concerned they are still held againgst their will and liberty.

The only feeling of hope is the recent release of oil riggers in Nigeria. Let us hope that this is reflected in this current "ongoing" nightmare for these individuals and their families.

DuK