HI Ted, thanks very much for the support and views I really do want to produce a high quality, strong and secure overland system Made in England - with the versatility to be adapted at manufacturing point to customer requirements, not aimed at the dressing up market market they will always opt for alloy I think, Its really quite hard putting together a product like this - as I am finding out, sourcing and testing materials, design, costing out of time / materials etc then the suppliers want to deal in large quantities to get the prices down. All then has to be put together to have some future in it that I can actually make some sort of living in the future from it . Got to be honest Its not looking too good as a viable business at the moment as I can not get the costing down enough to make the end product viable. If I was just making a few sets for one off's it would be quite simple but to try and turn out enough to make a profit looks very very foggy indeed. I am however still hopeful of getting something together and seeing how it goes - but we will see how many hills there are to climb after I reach the top of this one - seems Ive lost my way in the fog at the moment and the snow seems damn deep for the rest of the climb !.

Best regards Jake.

I admire your effort but also am not optimistic for a high-end, niche product at a reasonable price...if it were easy, I think someone would have done it already. Good luck and keep us posted!

Jake, rather than trying to 'go big' straight away, it may pay to produce a quality product in low volumes & let the market take it from there, I believe that there is an opening in the (European*) market for a product like this - just how big it is who knows......

Phil

* The Australian/US markets already have their own versions of this sort of thing.

Good luck anyway

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650 Transalp

Your probably just better off making a few rough prototypes. Try to get some kind of patent and then sell the design for a % (Dragons Den type of thing)...

It doesnt have to be that difficult... Use materials already tried and tested on the market. You dont need NASA stuff for travelling..

Leather, Cordura etc... I think what will make yours great as it will be designed just for Overland bikes, not having to accomodate sports bikes, street bikes and not have to look really pretty so catalogues etc.

Start off with a set of Ortlieb or Andystrapz bags and look to improve rather them rather than totally redesign. Use other companies leg work in the base product.

Rivit the weak points, change the zips, sew on extras, introduce heat proof sections on it and especially try and get a custom fitted protective mesh around it.

How far you get depends on your commitment. Doesnt have to cost the earth and if you get a few decent prototypes, you could sell them to cover the initial costs for "round 2".

As for costing...

Set of good bags are £150-£200. 2x pacsafes add £120 to this.. So if can get them made for under £300 then you're already competetive !!

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

Hi Ted, shandydrinker and Motorieter, I think we are all thinking along the same lines here and the ideas and suggestions you are making are exactly along the lines I was initially wanting and am trying to put together. I hope to pull it off but there are quite a lot of hidden costs that you start to find out about when you start putting them together - this has a knock on effect, I also need to sink a good few bob into this once I start - still I will in any case be making the prototypes soon in the new year and see how they work out. All the ideas are coming together fairly well but making them work in a manufacturing process is like I say similar to wading through deep snow in the fog - uphill - so onwards and upwards - hope there is a pub at the top.

This is an uphill battle for sure. If you look at how some other companies work you see that the initial design and prototyping are done in the US, UK, Germany, Italy or where ever the home company operates from.

Once designers have got a product to a certain stage and have had feed back from staff, experts, travelers and the like, they then go back and make improvements and make arrangements for production and cost it out.

If the project is Green lighted, then at this point they typically send the whole project to China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Vietnam or Croatia. Deals are stuck, prototyping begins (again) and once the principles sign off on the final design, major production begins.

Like you have said, most larger companies engage in huge production numbers. Really hard to compete with that when just starting out.

Look at a company like Klim. This is a small US based outdoor gear company that a few years ago got into Motorcycle apparel. They did Snow Board/Ski stuff before that. Very crowded market. Their strategy was to sponsor high profile Adventure Riders on the ADV rider forum, sponsor and partner with KTM and get the stuff out to key MC people in the media, on the forums, get visibility in Rallies and other popular events. They already had success doing this in the Snow Board world. Same basic formula.

Now Klim are into helmets (they don't make any of them, they only design the graphics, all Chinese made). Their off road riding apparel is doing pretty well it seems and is becoming known internationally, in big rallies, and is used by "famous" and well known world travelers and now even average riders are buying the stuff in droves. (some post here)

ADV rider has a claimed regular readership of about 100,000. (500,000 members, not all active) Nothing to sneeze at! Remember, they also have a Vendors forum there and reach 100 times the riders as HUBB.

All of Klim's gear is made overseas, not in the USA. They now make Jerseys, Enduro jackets, gloves, Enduro pants, Helmets and who knows what else by now.

If you feel you have a good design that is really new and a breakthrough, first of all, try to patent it. ($$ good luck with that! $$). Then perhaps approach a company like Klim that is expanding their line every year, getting into new products constantly and growing. Just a thought.

Look at US companies like Tour Master and First Gear. Both make not only riding apparel but also soft luggage, tank bags, and the like. You could approach them (very carefully) with your idea and hope they don't simply steal your design. "Selling" your design to them would be tough and risky, but if it's really good, they will know it and may partner with you to produce it .... most likely in China or India.

Keep in mind, the RTW Adventure/Dual Sport/Traveler motorcycle community is a tiny spec when ALL riders are looked at. We are probably less than 3% overall. They will be wanting a product that appeals to a broader range of riders. Can't blame them I guess.

But there is a niche here, just not a very deep one. One thing to consider is how cheap Brit RTW riders are. One look at Sam Manicom will verify this. (I've read his books ... and no, I didn't pay for them!

It's very unlikely your product will ever be made in the UK unless you open your own work shop. But Andy Goldfine did it and look at him now!
(Aerostich)

The USA used to have a booming garment industry. I saw it first hand growing up in L.A. We've thrown it all away for profits for a few big international companies who exploit .10 cent an hour workers in the 3rd world working in conditions that would be illegal here. But that is another thread, another story.

You have to decide what you can morally put up with.

Hi Mickey thanks for your comments and input. However I am not into mass produced, profit only manufacturing. I really don't think this product would justify such a large marketplace and I also prefer to keep the build in house, where quality control,customer specified changes and constant improvements and revisions can be built into the system - therein lies I believe one of its selling points. I think Keeping it British, using as I am German and UK manufactured quality materials help with a quality product are much more important to me and hopefully my customers. Here in the UK we have a large tradition - which is coming back into favour of Cottage industry that supports local workers and suppliers - ethically and morally these are important factors in my business plan. I realize other people do things other ways but global industries are not for me.
Best regards Jake.

PS Mickey, Sam Manicom is a friend, along with being a real and genuine Gentleman. I feel it is a pity you could not have contributed to his work/income/effort of which he lives off by writing - by way of buying his books. Not that Sam would voice such a thought he is far to pleasant to do so.

While you said this in a very nice way, I don't agree at all that we have some kind of obligation to contribute to his income--what is wrong with getting the book from a library, or borrowing it from a friend?? Why on earth should I feel compelled to buy someone's book?

You have some very admirable ideals for your business plan. Great to hear Cottage industries are reemerging in the UK. Nothing better than supporting your local community. I saw this working in the Italian shoe industry (Ancona) when I was there doing documentary work for the Harvard Business School/Fortune magazine. I've done many shows for them world wide.

So how many units do you want to sell each year? 6 sets? 100 sets? I think you'll find that the market in the UK is very small, no matter how good the product is. Spreading the word by word of mouth can work but takes time.
How much have you got? I assume you want to make some profit, at some point? Or would you give it all to charity? I assume you would use Union workers and pay all their benefits as well. (I am an Union member myself and very pro-Union) If you care about your workers dignity, I'd assume you'd pay them a living wage? Do they make all the best materials you would need in the UK? How are those costs?

I tried to show you a few different approaches to kick starting your effort.
Maybe you missed my example of Andy Goldfine? Do you know who he is?
Do you have any idea what his business is? Based on your very egalitarian ideals, I'd take a lesson from Andy if I were you. He started out in a very similar manner with similar ideals.

Another example:
Wolfman in Colorado is another small, independent company built from the ground up by a couple people. Here is their latest product. Notice the special being offered now. Buy the bags and you get the racks FREE!

Wolfman Motorcycle Luggage

Wolfman Motorcycle Luggage

Wolfman Motorcycle Luggage

I found one of his books in a Hostel in Guatemala, another a friend lent me .... never asked for it back! (Distant Suns) Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Have you ever seen Sam buy a round for the boys? Or for anyone? Seems like when Sam travels he is only on the receiving end of things: Free drinks, meals, lodging, bodging on his BMW. But never returns the favor. This from sources who met him in S. America, and I'm putting this in very polite terms. Word is he is so cheap, he squeaks.

I could actually kind of "feel" this in his writing. I've never met him but won't be buying anymore of his books. Quite a bit of marketing Chutzpah to publish a book about a ride that happened ten years ago.