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19 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caminando
An excellent and thoughtful post, thanks.
The evidence shows that waxed cotton is no good at all for bike riding.
It was designed in the 19th century for fishermen in the North Sea, and to use it in the 21st century when riding is just plain  . Even those who like the "old look" admit that it's rubbish.
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So the fact it worked in the 19th Century stops it working now?
I wore a Drizabone all last winter and a Belstaff copy over the summer. They are truely waterproof (probably a factor of the collar and cuff design as much as anything) and need a few hours work per year (usual bikers fiddle factor at work here IMHO, too many owners like getting the wax out, which at least makes a change from adjusting their valves twice a week). I've had no problem with grease/marks/smells (use spray on proofing not wax in a tin). I don't find the Belstaff too hot in a UK summer and in a German or Scandanavian winter the Drizabone was a great top layer. I don't limit my thinking on safety to armour (only works after the event), so while this is a factor it doesn't put me off. Certainly for sidecar use the advantges outweigh the problems.
Durability I don't really know about. Last jacket I fell off in was nylon/Goretex and was trashed but did it's job. I'm still using the remains of my last Goretex and nylon jacket for the odd trip to the shops/work. The fact it leaks where the velcro (nasty old 1960's technology) doesn't work or the outer is dirty, or some badly glued on bit (horrible old 1990's technology) has dropped off puts me off 2 year old £400 jackets. My Drizabone was second hand 3 years ago and is still perfect, the Belstaff copy perfect at just over a year (and only cost £99).
For a two month trip round Europe I'd take the wax cotton. For longer and hotter it could be a tougher decision. I think I might go leather and put the cash into decent zips (sorry Cam, I know these are 1920's). It would take a lot to get me back in the Horrible Gherkin shop.
Andy
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19 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie
So the fact it worked in the 19th Century stops it working now?
I wore a Drizabone all last winter and a Belstaff copy over the summer. They are truely waterproof (probably a factor of the collar and cuff design as much as anything) and need a few hours work per year (usual bikers fiddle factor at work here IMHO, too many owners like getting the wax out, which at least makes a change from adjusting their valves twice a week). I've had no problem with grease/marks/smells (use spray on proofing not wax in a tin). I don't find the Belstaff too hot in a UK summer and in a German or Scandanavian winter the Drizabone was a great top layer. I don't limit my thinking on safety to armour (only works after the event), so while this is a factor it doesn't put me off. Certainly for sidecar use the advantges outweigh the problems.
Durability I don't really know about. Last jacket I fell off in was nylon/Goretex and was trashed but did it's job. I'm still using the remains of my last Goretex and nylon jacket for the odd trip to the shops/work. The fact it leaks where the velcro (nasty old 1960's technology) doesn't work or the outer is dirty, or some badly glued on bit (horrible old 1990's technology) has dropped off puts me off 2 year old £400 jackets. My Drizabone was second hand 3 years ago and is still perfect, the Belstaff copy perfect at just over a year (and only cost £99).
For a two month trip round Europe I'd take the wax cotton. For longer and hotter it could be a tougher decision. I think I might go leather and put the cash into decent zips (sorry Cam, I know these are 1920's). It would take a lot to get me back in the Horrible Gherkin shop.
Andy
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Well, we've had some time since the 19th C to improve materials. Maybe you'd like the kind of armour they used in the 13th C, if you're into early technology; and that would be a choice. Waxed cotton worked just as badly a century ago, but it was the best they had. Sorry, Andy, this is the 21st C.
Even Dod who is a fan of waxed cotton lists a lot of things that are wrong with this material for biking. You don't comment on all that, unfortunately. But if you like such stuff well why not - but that's different from saying it's good. I used waxed cotton for bike and deerstalking and it was clear that others with simple PVC clothing fared much better at a fraction of the cost. My new waxed cotton jacket was ready for the bin after 12 weeks use at deerstalking. The limited waterproofing came with a penalty -the fabric got a stiff as a board and weighed a lot more too. The fabric then developed holes where creases were. That's in addition to the list of other problems for bikers. Then the Hooray Henrys started using it. It seems this fashion has returned, and it can be seen in bars as one post showed.
Just because a product is old doesn't mean it's good, unless nostalgia confuses your opinions. If you don't like zips and don't like velcro etc, then yes waxed cotton has a place. You're right about one thing though - the prices charged for many modern jackets etc is horrific, and a ripoff, especially as many are made cheaply in Asia. £400 for a jacket? Tho' a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket cant be far away from that. Am I wrong in thinking that Drizabone makes those big long coats that reach to your boots? Maybe fine on an outfit, but not solo?
How do you feel about pudding basin helmets?
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19 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caminando
Then the Hooray Henrys started using it. It seems this fashion has returned, and it can be seen in bars as one post showed.
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So if we wait a couple of years for wax cotton to drop out of fashion there should be plenty of second hand jackets on ebay for a fair price
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19 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophydave
So if we wait a couple of years for wax cotton to drop out of fashion there should be plenty of second hand jackets on ebay for a fair price 
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Now you're talking! Spot on Dave.
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19 Sep 2010
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Yes Dodge, its Lewis leathers, I had seen the LL advert on the back of a friends M/C mag in the October, and loved this particular jacket, but as said, 'the cost'. Then, I went through all the reasons to justify paying that much, but struggled! It was not until the early January after I had worked many hours over the Christmas and New Year that I decided that it would be 'my' Christmas present to myself!
The Pros I figured; Apart from loss or theft, it will see me out the rest of my days.
Should I lose or gain weight drastically  .LL will alter accordingly.
How many £'s have I spent/wasted on Wax/kevlar/cordura etc over the last how many years?
Lewis Leathers service is first class, I did initially have a stitching problem on one of the pockets but after a phone call, they admitted I was not the first with this, and recalled the jacket for re-stitch and rivets added.
The cons; Heavy, and being leather you don't really want too many soakings but has so far not 'leaked'. not yet been used in 'high temps' and not looking forward to that. and whilst after 2years the quality is so good it is really taking time to 'break-in' and you can look like an extra from the Village people
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19 Sep 2010
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Lewis Leathers is good stuff.
My brother wears my old Belstaff bike jacket that is 30 yearsold .
Barbour have been making the International jacket [ IN ENGLAND ]for 75 years ,they must be doing something right .
Barbours always look better when they have a few years patina .
I prefer natural material to synthetic and don't mind putting up with a bit of inconvenience [ if reproofing every couple of years can be considered inconvenient]. I have bought 3 textile jackets [First gear ,Santiago and Belstaff Discovery ]in the last few years and been disapointed in all of them ,only one ,the Belstaff , comes close to what I expect from a jacket but even that has too many useless pockets and velcro.A Barbour jacket is cheaper than any of them .
If there is a good ,simple, textile jacket out there [with a waterproof OUTER layer ] ,I'd like to hear about it .
As regards abrasion resistance ,it's obvious that waxed cotton will never be as good as leather .But I do have experience of sliding down the road on my back after coming a cropper at something above 60 mph ,I was wearing a Belstaff and jeans ,the jean's back pocket wore through and the Belstaff had scratch marks ,I guess I was lucky .Personally ,these days, I'm more concerned about the initial contact with terra firma and I'd like to see Barbour make an armoured bike jacket like Belstaff ,I'd buy one for sure .
Maybe my son has the right idea , he wears a tight fitting armoured leather jacket and ,when it rains , wears my Barbour over the top of it .[ no wonder I can never find it !  ]
Whatever you choose ride safe.
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Last edited by Dodger; 22 Sep 2010 at 03:03.
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19 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
,the price seems high but not that expensive [ in Canada ] when you consider it is about the same as the top half of a BMW "clown suit" ,
(Dodge, we all know you hate BMW stuff with a serious vicious passion as your previous posts show. Hey that's OK- but just own up. People who use BMW stuff, (not me,) are not clowns...please? That's not a good thing to say)
I must say I'm a bit surprised that Cammy has such a passionate hatred of waxed cotton jackets
(Dod, I have already told you I had waxed cotton and funnily enough it was the Solway model! It was rubbish IMO. I even used it on the Solway Firth when wildfowling. The same one which fell apart when doing 12 weeks solid deerstalking.)
To give an example ,I have a Barbour Solway that is 20 years old
(well maybe you didnt use it much).
Barbours always look better when they have a few years patina .
I used to wear mine at the pub after a day on the farm , happy days !
--The friendly banter , the buxom barmaid , a wholesome pint ,a log fire ,the aroma of pipe tobacco mixing with the pungent country smell of frying shit and cow's afterbith roasting on the back of my Barbour .---
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(Now this bit about cows etc is quite right - but nothing to do with m/cycling . It's for farmers and others, but not, please, m/cyclists.)
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19 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
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Barbour have been making the International jacket [ IN ENGLAND ]for 75 years ,they must be doing something right . 
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That, ...or, they are just out of new ideas
P.S.: Love my clown suit
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"Hey, ...I'm just ridin' shotgun" 
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20 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caminando
Well, we've had some time since the 19th C to improve materials. Maybe you'd like the kind of armour they used in the 13th C, if you're into early technology; and that would be a choice. Waxed cotton worked just as badly a century ago, but it was the best they had. Sorry, Andy, this is the 21st C.
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How can they be improved if they have to have glued on fasteners and cease to function when dirty? What we have is more proffitable materials that work well enough to be accepted. Goretex can be welded while cotton has to be sewn with a waxed thread. Nylon thread does not absorb moisture to any great extent, natural fibres need treating. The current batch of modern gear is only more expensive at retail prices because the shops are selling to people prepared to pay and still be damp on the few occasions they get caught in the rain. The current crop of Belstaff copies are cheap because the fashion market won't pay bike shop prices unless they get the name and they are mostly made in what for want of a better word we'll call third world sweat shops (mine's Egyptian).
It's actually the same with the suit of armour you mention. Good early renaissance steel armour is shaped to deflect to sword strikes and with the layers underneath would stop small bullets (which is why the military use 3/4-inch musket balls for years). If you want something to save you in a hacking battle it's as good as kevlar. The reason it wasn't used for four hundred years is the cost of equipping enough people with it to make it effective. Knight versus archer is cash versus training. Knight versus musketeer is quality versus quantity, you can train a peasant to shoot faster than you can make the armour. Put some dodgy undersize actor in the armour without the leather and wool underneath and it ceases to function properly too  . IMHO, Goretex bike gear is still at the red coat and needing four hands to carry your hat, pack and musket stage, not kevlar and ceramic plates.
Andy
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20 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie
The current batch of modern gear is only more expensive at retail prices because the shops are selling to people prepared to pay and still be damp on the few occasions they get caught in the rain.
I fully agree.
The current crop of Belstaff copies are cheap because the fashion market won't pay bike shop prices unless they get the name and they are mostly made in what for want of a better word we'll call third world sweat shops (mine's Egyptian).
Actually the Hooray Henry fashion market has saved waxed cotton and pushed up prices sky high for a product that costs little to make. £400 for a waxed cotton jacket? Come on!
Good stuff on ball resisting armour, and good stuff on the medieval economy....but after a good soaking, waxed cotton could stop a bullet or crossbow bolt, it's so stiff.
Andy
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20 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caminando
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It was the nylon and Goretex that cost £400. I broke my own rule and thought that as the £250 one didn't work that well a more expensive one would. The extra £150 seems to just buy a different colour  . The Egyptian wax cotton one was £99 plus just over £10 for a squeezy bottle of "treatment". The Drizabone was £65 as some sort of return/shop second and needed a bit of work washing and spraying. I'm guessing a few of the peole unconvinced about the waterproofness maybe got wet on the way home from the shop? A mate of mine bought a £45 Belstaff copy and it leaked until sprayed.
Andy
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20 Sep 2010
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Mr C and Mr D
Hi Caminando, hi Dodger
Would it be ok if you took your personal semantic wildfowl/clownsuit BMW lovers/haters/whatever debate offline? It would IMHO assist the reading of this thread to not have to train the brain to zone out the pointless and petty hot air. It's not the first time.
I can see this developing into yet another flame war.
Thanks
Chris
PS Are wax cotton jackets fire retardent?
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20 Sep 2010
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21 Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris
PS Are wax cotton jackets fire retardent?
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Can't say for sure. Nylon vs exhaust leads to dripping and a vile smell. Waxed cotton vs exhaust leads to a sooty mark and a slightly less vile smell.
The bloke from Triumph who put the exhaust so close to the chain better hope I'm in a good mood if we ever meet  .
Andy
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