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Photo by Michael Jordan, enjoying a meal at sunset, Zangskar Valley, India

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Photo by Michael Jordan
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Zangskar Valley, India



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  #31  
Old 12 May 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dajg View Post
apparently there is a bmw car dealer in north khartoum. think its too far for the bike to make it but i'll check it out with a taxi & see if they have a computer.
There used to be one pretty close to the Blue Nile Sailing Club, I have never visited it but I saw it on my nightly walks.
They might have a fuel-pump you can try, it doesn't have to be bike-specific.
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  #32  
Old 12 May 2010
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Another long shot for you:

If you've been taking on grotty fuel, it may be that the fuel filter is clogging.

Happened to me many years ago on an old BMW car (2002). The tank was full of sediment which sank to the bottom at rest, but stirred up and clogged the filter once you drove for half an hour or so. Engine would die and not restart / start and run badly until it'd been stood for a while.

I've poured over the parts manual and there doesn't seem to be a seperate fuel filter, so I'm assuming it's integral to the pump.

Might be worth pulling the fuel pump out and checking it?

Can post pics of the procedure if you need them...
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  #33  
Old 12 May 2010
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Yes, O2 sensor and lambda probe are one and the same.

I doubt it's the battery as the symptoms are different and your voltage readings seem OK, see posts #43 and #53 in electrical problem in Morocco, however it's worth trying so you can at least eliminate it as a possibility.

I also doubt it's a blocked fuel filter given the comments from my consultant engineer friend--the symptoms are the wrong way round for this. But again, if you are able to work out how to access the filter it would be worth checking to eliminate it as a possibility.

Crossing fingers and toes for you.

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  #34  
Old 12 May 2010
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This could easily be the fuel pump. The bike relies on a high pressure fuel feed and with the pump playing up, you're not getting this.

It would explain the stalling but not the throttle position. You would expect the bike to run better at low speeds/half throttle than at open throttle but it's no exact science.

Engine management issues are a totaly nightmare (as you now know) on the road.

Can you get hold of the official workshop manual ?? They often have structrured flowchart electrical checks for diagnosis.
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  #35  
Old 12 May 2010
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ok to clarify

i didn't test ride the bike with the throttle positioning sensor unplugged - i got the bike to stall (was already hot) on the centre stand at camp after a few minutes of playing with the throttle (like 3000 revs then back off a bit). however the tacho etc still works and engine speed increases which to me indicates the bike will run on road no probs... until it stalls...

the O2 sensor & air temp disconnected didn't affect the test ride today - still had stalling.

on the way down from wadi halfa (ferry crossing) to donglar (400km into sudan) i bought 4L of fuel from a plastic bottle. was ok. i filled up 10L from another bikers jerry can - was 95 octane from turkey - maybe a month old - bike was fine. filled up in town with local fuel - bike was fine. however on the way to donglar i ran out of fuel twice... first time bike indicated 6km to run, second time 47km to run. anyway, over 300km and two top-ups later i had the first stall.

it was cruising up behind my mates bike as he stopped to ask directions. i was in neutral. this happened several times but i figured it was heat. always at low rpms. normally goes away after i fill up.

back in vientiane (see my 1st or 2nd post on adv around the 22k mark the bike stalled in town 180km after last fill up. bike started again on the side of road, died, started, died, i coasted in to petrol station, filled up, bike fine for 2000+km to bangkok. died in town after a 600km day while i was on way to hotel. restart, die, restart, die, fill up, no problems. when it died in town i had a half tank. both vte & bkk were great weather, maybe low 30 deg c. many thousands of k's later bike stalled once in pakistan, cold weather, half tank, filled up, no probs. hot weather coast of egypt, bike stalled few times in 2 days always low power. so i thought that it didn't like half a tank in hot weather. i never really diagnosed anything but the incidents were so isolated i didn't worry about it. adding fuel always fixed the problem.

i've never had a whoosh sound opening the tank. i am sure the vent system and breathers are fine.

so - last friday.

crusing along in 6th, no traffic, constant rpm, perfect riding conditions, etc etc and the bike dies. i turn ignition off, then on, hit start, away i go. fine for over 100km before it happens again. i figure its low petrol so i buy more.

no good. i figure the petrol is bad so i tip the bike and empty the whole tank. nearly stand the bike upside down. then i fill from my mates jerry which has fuel from donglar which we know was good (mates on a ktm640). he had rejetted to take 80 octane and had experienced less than normal power on the fuel here but maybe its hot air temp, and less than the 92 octane we were buying in egypt.

after changing the fuel the bike has been cooling for a while. so then i'm fine for 40km before it stalls again. then the problem is really bad... the bike is stalling whenever i back off the throttle.

ride from cold, bike is fine for 20km then at constant rpm the engine stops dead. restart, sometimes need to turn ignition off, sometimes ok with starter. i never use throttle to start. using throttle after the bike cuts out does nothing - its already dead.

after the first 20km on cold bike, the engine dies every time i back off the throttle (i.e. traffic, downhill etc.) hence i tried to make khartoum by holding 4000rpm in 3rd gear and using clutch to back off etc. though bike still died regularly i.e. every 5km max.

the rpm guage drops back normally until i pull the clutch and it obviously goes to zero.

from camp its 5km to my test ground, then i can cruise up and down without to much interuption until the bike stalls after testing something. the 5-20km return isn't nice on the battery - can stall up to 10-12 times (traffic).

today i read the 25 pages of adv "800 stalls like i run out of gas..." etc. and there are about 4 guys who had the same symptoms. there is no water in the airbox (laugh - its 45 deg here last couple days, and egypt not much better). my bike NEVER stalled in rain, and in north pakistan, central iran, malaysia and thailand during monsoon, turkey, bulgaria & hungary in snow & rain never bothered the bike a bit (though my left hand froze clearing ice from the visor...). also, its australian bike so no charcoal canister. i used to overfill the tank, but the last 5 days i haven't filled up (except octane boost & injection cleaner). pretty sure the bike vented the fuel straight on to the ground though after an overfill and leaving out in the sun.

theres no vacuum on the tank. rode with the cap open. the air intakes are fine. i replaced the foam airfilter & put plastic bottle tops on the ends of the intakes. plenty of air getting in. the breather hoses look fine. the plugs are 2 days old, and the ones from germany service 11k ago also looked great. leads are good. battery reading is good.

i've been putting it off because bike stalls in neutral on centre stand, but tomorrow finally i will disconnect the side stand.

today the bike got a good wash & i pulled the radiator & fan out to clean fan of sand, grit etc. fan runs fine, etc etc.

i am out of ideas. germany should be sending a new throttle positioning sensor and a fuel pump friday (bank hol thurs)... which might arrive sometime next week... tomorrow i will go shopping for a pump from a kia rio which i think will fit the size & spec & give this a go.

also, on the "stalling" link, clutch doesn't affect the stall, and it happens through the rev range, and only stalls from idle when i have it on the centre stand for testing. usually, it dies while producing power, long before dropping back to idle...

thanks again
d
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  #36  
Old 12 May 2010
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Does the bike have a knock sensor ?? Low quality fuel causing the management system to shut down to prevent engine damage.
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  #37  
Old 12 May 2010
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no knock sensor, no fuel filter, just a mesh thing (forget the term) buried in the pump somewhere.

i have the tech dvd but its only good for showing how to remove some parts. no troubleshoot or wiring diagrams.
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  #38  
Old 12 May 2010
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Great write up! I'm thinking clogged fuel filter in fuel pump or marginal fuel pump. Some fuel pumps allow access to the filter, some do not.

Is there any way to check fuel pump output? Should pump a certain amount in a minute or 30 seconds or something like that. If the pump is pumping at factory spec, then i'm out of ideas. I like the Kia fuel pump idea!

After you solve this (and you WILL!) I'd give your battery a nice long trickle charge to get it up to 100%.

Good hunting!
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  #39  
Old 12 May 2010
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don't think i can get at the fuel filter.. without damaging seals etc.

the pump output can be measured with a pressure guage which i don't have.

the other way - disconnect one end etc - might be ok, if i knew where to find the flow rate i am supposed to have.

when i say the kia pump should work, it worked in a guys 05 aprilla 650cc (fuel injected) here, and he reckons the terminals look identical, and the space measured out ok. he paid 50 bucks... so tomorrow i go shopping.

if germany comes good i think i can have DHL reroute to addis or nairobi and have chris at jungle junction fit the spec pump if i make it....
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  #40  
Old 12 May 2010
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The problem with swapping out the fuel pump with another one is the fuel pressure.

FI systems need a constant, set pressure to work properly to prime the rail (not sure if the new F650 has a rail though)

I think you're just best off waiting for the new parts from Germany, put you feet up and enjoy the scenery.

I'd definately be scouring the internet looking for the workshop manual though. The dealers don't work out of memory. It's all out the book or off the computer. You need to be an auto electrician/electrical engineer to work on newer bikes. They're more like computers than motorcycles.
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  #41  
Old 12 May 2010
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For a manual try Carl Salter and other random rubbish, Wheels PCDs, Free Service Manuals, Free PDF Downloads hope this helps.
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  #42  
Old 13 May 2010
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Dajg .. since I cleaned the side stand switch with some WD40, it has not happened to me again. Bike ran fine yesterday and today, but since yours cut out even in N and on the centre stand, I don't think its the switch in your case. Good luck, let us know if the fuel pump solves it.

Other question for you, is it true that they do not allow motorcycles on the passenger ferry between Aswan and Wadi Halfa any more ? Do you have to wait for a barge ?

Touring Ted, I see you plan to leave in September down towards Cape Town ? We are also leaving September from London .. maybe we can exchange some details. We are 3 riders, 2 x F800GS and 1 x F650GS (single).

Coming back to the stalling .. I think my petrol pump is slowly on it's way out If this is the fix for you dajg, then I might just get my petrol pump replaced just before we leave to be safe. I do not have time for any lengthy break downs in Africa as I only have 2 months off work ...

Will check this thread tomorrow again ... good night !
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  #43  
Old 13 May 2010
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copied from adv rider - few other suggestions on the link
total power failure f650 twin - stuck in khartoum - Page 4 - ADVrider

righto..

disconnected the fuel pressure sensor. the bike ran but...
- wouldn't reach 2000rpm
- only spiked over 1500rpm when i hit the throttle
- only happy to idle - no power.
- reconnected to try something else

disconnected the throttle positioning sensor again
- first, while the bike was running. it quit instantly. plugged it in, restarted ok
- second disconnect before restart. bike would idle at 2000rpm, no lower
- restarted, and bike idles at 1250-1500rpm and doesn't like it - constant surging sound
- test ride 30km:
= stalled first time the cops pulled me over, and twice trying to get to the side of the road (was a motorcade coming)
= second time cop pulled me over because i'd done 7 laps of the street, bike kept running but as i pulled away somthing was making a 'whiring' sound which i didn't like. turned bike off, then on, no whirring, return to base.
= no typical stalling though i hadn't taken the bike up to 5th gear for a good solid stretch - was always slowing, turning, dodging traffic.

so - i think its not the fuel pressure sensor or the throttle positioning sensor. the bike is much happier with these plugged in.

anyone have accurate info on the requirements of the fuel pump? i will try track one down here, earliest from DHL will be early-mid next week (dispatch late tomorrow).

did i mention theres no here?

cheers
d
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  #44  
Old 13 May 2010
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You said yesterday (on AdvRider) that you were about to disconnect the side stand switch. How did this go? Any difference?

Tim
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  #45  
Old 13 May 2010
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Dajg
Might be worth your while, since you are stopped, to order the '911' dongle from Hex.
It would have saved you a great deal of guessing and work.
Good luck
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