gearshifting problem on xt600e

[N67]

hi everybody

bike is 2002 model, used to run without big issues during the years.
mileage is over 160k kms.

problems started couple weeks ago, pretty sharp and out of nowhere
during the day-long road ride - suddenly felt bit weird and weak
feedback from gearshift pedal.
during / after stopping discovered that switching into gears became
tricky - mostly, in these cases: N > 1, N > 2, 1 <> 2 and 4 > 5.

"tricky" means that sometimes gear changing was not happening at all
and i had to roll the bike a bit, or turn off the engine and then attempt
to change gears. also, sometimes after shifting it would shift back (by
itself!) in previous gear pretty soon.
occasional false neutrals also used to happen.

some further ride showed that this problems used to happen roughly in
the half of the shifting attempts in the above listed cases, while
2<>3<>4 cases were mostly ok, which let me get back to my place.
some other attempts on next days showed that switching was happening
much better when engine was still cold.

before removing clutch cover, was hoping for some wear on the starry
end of selector drum or on the ratcheting mechanism of shift shaft.
but no.
no evident signs of wear.
following 0,04K videos show how the selector drum gets stuck somewhere
between the positions and failing to properly engage gears.






what happens when selector is stuck? no change unless some input from
rear wheel or engine.

as a last hope, fitted another stopper lever with much bigger roller
(spare from other model), but still no success.




seems i'm facing some major problem with unknown extent, involving
splitting the case and then who knows..

are there any clues what to expect? or what might be the reason?

[turboguzzi]

do you have a magnetic oil drain plug? could be interesting to see if you have abnormal debris on it


if not, drain the oil into a really clean container and drag a magnet in it.


try refilling it with th ebest synthetic you can get and see if it makes a difference...



have you dropped the bike on the left side? sometimes it can bend the shift shaft a bit and add friction.


want to assumes that clutch disengages properly.


take off all the plates and check that the inner hub rotates freely

[xtrock]

My experience on the 4pt vs 3tb is that its really sensetiv on the adjustment on cable. Never had problem on the 3tb dropping and not going in 1, but happend with the 4pt before i adjustet 100%, had problems gearing down when clutch in 3gear. Changed clutch believed i had solved problem, but the suddenly back and all ok after adjust clutch cable.

[N67]

turboguzzi, thanks for clues/advices.

yes, plug has attached pretty decent neodymium magnet.
used to see some <1mm particles, but rarely. more common material mined there is just small amount of very fine dust around the perimeter of magnet. signs of normal wear i suppose.

dropped? of course but not this year yet. engine protector partially protects the shift lever. guess the rest of the impact must be absorbed by the flexibility of lever. remember, had to re-shape it back to normal couple times, with the force of the hands only.
still good clue about shift shaft, will note for that judgement day of splitting the case...

inner hub rotates freely.

but...

Originally Posted by turboguzzi

...
want to assumes that clutch disengages properly.
...

in fact, clutch has never been easy, even while pulling the lever completely there still was some interference. during the years, fingers on my left gloves used to wear first, but was completely used to this, assuming that clutch on these bikes is not light.

now more important but:
clutch plates were not put in proper order.
guess i know who's the culprit: that very person who was yours truly several years ago, when replacing the clutch with no bike-specific knowledge at all. followed the advice of bit more (but not sufficiently) experienced friend and placed the different friction plates first and last.
later, when became aware of this mistake, used to postpone this task since it worked to the degree what could be considered as "normal".
wrong.

the result is uneven wear along the layers and some wear on pressure plate as well.

could this be the reason? wish so much to be.

at least having some plan for now - assembling the clutch properly (still in working condition), good synth and let's see. if it will work, new pressure plate and clutch kit will be the next priority.

thanks again and will update when there'll be news.
- - - - - - -

Originally Posted by xtrock

My experience on the 4pt vs 3tb is that its really sensetiv on the adjustment on cable. Never had problem on the 3tb dropping and not going in 1, but happend with the 4pt before i adjustet 100%, had problems gearing down when clutch in 3gear. Changed clutch believed i had solved problem, but the suddenly back and all ok after adjust clutch cable.

read this just now.
thanks for another clue, will pay attention to cable as well when bike will be ready.

[N67]

well, after some time and around 500 kms there's something to share.

bike is rideable - that's best thing to start with.
clutch was re-assembled in proper order.
also, this time paid more attention on alignment of gears of axle and push rod (these xts' have clutch shift mechanism on the right side). the result is perpendicularity of clutch cable and pull lever (while clutch is being engaged), thus giving the best leverage.
and suddenly clutch gets much softer.
and, more importantly, i could select the gears normally!

from the beginning, clutch used to get slippery, then i had to feed down the cable. some more time, again slippery, bit more adjustment... it happened several times, with quickly decreasing rate.
the reason seems to be some groovy wear on pressure and some friction plates: after re-arrangement this grooves met with flat surface, resulting much less area of contact to wear first and quick.
anyways, already got new clutch kit, now waiting for pressure plate to arrive.

since the assembly, gearbox downshifted from 5th to 4th only once, and one false neutral has happened.
only remaining (or transformed) problem is that now it's neutral to find hard, but it reminds about itself mostly during longer red traffic lights only.

thus, for now the issue is not completely solved, although, it's no more big issue at least.
really didn't expected that proper order of clutch plates could make such essential difference (considering that new oil and better alignment of axle gears are secondary factors).
the time will tell how it will be after new clutch and pressure plate, as well as proper cable adjustments after break-in...

cheers!

[xtrock]

Originally Posted by N67

well, after some time and around 500 kms there's something to share.

bike is rideable - that's best thing to start with.
clutch was re-assembled in proper order.
also, this time paid more attention on alignment of gears of axle and push rod (these xts' have clutch shift mechanism on the right side). the result is perpendicularity of clutch cable and pull lever (while clutch is being engaged), thus giving the best leverage.
and suddenly clutch gets much softer.
and, more importantly, i could select the gears normally!

from the beginning, clutch used to get slippery, then i had to feed down the cable. some more time, again slippery, bit more adjustment... it happened several times, with quickly decreasing rate.
the reason seems to be some groovy wear on pressure and some friction plates: after re-arrangement this grooves met with flat surface, resulting much less area of contact to wear first and quick.
anyways, already got new clutch kit, now waiting for pressure plate to arrive.

since the assembly, gearbox downshifted from 5th to 4th only once, and one false neutral has happened.
only remaining (or transformed) problem is that now it's neutral to find hard, but it reminds about itself mostly during longer red traffic lights only.

thus, for now the issue is not completely solved, although, it's no more big issue at least.
really didn't expected that proper order of clutch plates could make such essential difference (considering that new oil and better alignment of axle gears are secondary factors).
the time will tell how it will be after new clutch and pressure plate, as well as proper cable adjustments after break-in...

cheers!

Its something strange, mine is perfect some days and others a mess. Seems like problems is worst when you do a emergency stop in high gear, i need to drop clutch a little to get it to gear down. On normal riding its never a problem, hard to tell whats out of sync.

[N67]

well, so far there're just couple things in which i've became certain - be it shifting problems or clutch slipping, it was less likely to happen on colder engine in my case. also, proper order of clutch plates, alignment of push rod & lever, and cable adjustment all make big difference how gearbox behaves.

stopping in high gears was also bit tricky for me as well - even before problems mentioned in the first post, gearbox sometimes not completely followed series of quick downshifting inputs. for now, after re-assembling the clutch, don't remember if i had to do this so far.

[xtrock]

Originally Posted by N67

well, so far there're just couple things in which i've became certain - be it shifting problems or clutch slipping, it was less likely to happen on colder engine in my case. also, proper order of clutch plates, alignment of push rod & lever, and cable adjustment all make big difference how gearbox behaves.

stopping in high gears was also bit tricky for me as well - even before problems mentioned in the first post, gearbox sometimes not completely followed series of quick downshifting inputs. for now, after re-assembling the clutch, don't remember if i had to do this so far.

Have been testing today, its impossible to gear down if bike is in 3/4 & 5th and i stop, have to release clutch a little and doesnt matter where wire is. No problem when rolling bike, you can tell huge difference on how amooth it gears if you find sweet spot on wire. 2 gear is possible to shift down but it want to stay in neutral, never had this problem on 3tb engine, seems like i have to make one engine of these two.

[N67]

rolling the bike a bit or releasing the clutch a bit - guess both mean some rotating input into gearbox from different sides. and yes, in some particular cases without such input selector drum is unable to switch. i used to think that i understand basic operation of my gearbox, but seemingly my knowledge is not enough to explain such deviations.

[xtrock]

Originally Posted by N67

rolling the bike a bit or releasing the clutch a bit - guess both mean some rotating input into gearbox from different sides. and yes, in some particular cases without such input selector drum is unable to switch. i used to think that i understand basic operation of my gearbox, but seemingly my knowledge is not enough to explain such deviations.

Its because they are not in sync standing still, thats normal but its a little bit to much distance i think. Thinking maybe they are not sliding as they should.

https://youtu.be/g8xnIFf4id4

https://youtu.be/h9MkzOkaHd4

[N67]

Originally Posted by xtrock

Its because they are not in sync standing still, thats normal but its a little bit to much distance i think. Thinking maybe they are not sliding as they should.

https://youtu.be/g8xnIFf4id4

https://youtu.be/h9MkzOkaHd4

yes, such animations used to be pretty helpful for understanding normal working order.
which, on it's side, could benefit to understand when something's abnormal.

to put simply, there could be some other issues caused by wear.
turboguzzi mentioned about bent shift shaft.
your clue about not sliding well also makes sense. input and/or output shafts could also be bent.
according to current practice, there's pretty big chance that i'll be able to keep riding (considering replacing clutch and pressure plate). then time will tell about further needs like splitting the case and need of other parts.

[Tomkat]

You say the bike has done 160,000 kms. That's a high mileage for any bike, and nothing lasts forever.

Clutch drag can become a problem on higher mileage motors with just normal wear and tear. The plates wear notches in the basket and the centre, so when you pull the cable the plates tend to sit in the notches instead of separating smoothly. This will make it hard to find neutral and can lead to clunky changes. The only answer is a complete new clutch assembly.

In turn, clunky and incomplete gear changes will wear selector forks and dogs, leading to jumping out of gear and further wear. Again the cure is complete replacement. Maybe it's time to consider getting a new(er) bike?

[N67]

yup, all points are true.
thanks for that.
as for getting new(er) bike, well, besides some emotional link, there're couple pragmatical points as well, including some set of accumulated spares (once more) including selector and forks.
maybe at some point getting lower mileage engine or gearbox could become priority, let's see...