Here's my unsolicited two bits.

The 800GS will become the defacto bike of choice for RTW and long distance riding.

There's a lot of reasons behind this but every year new people get interested in the idea of a big trip and for many, a primary form of exposure is Ewan and Charlie on TV and also the BMW marketing juggernaut, historical and current. As a result, ask the average guy at a bike show what bike to buy for "adventure" touring and most will answer BMW.

Many have been buying the 1200GS because it's natural to think that more is better and usually you don't find out that most of the riding doesn't require that size/power etc. Most of these people will wisely turn to the 800 as it is still in their comfort zone of brand recognition. As the ride reports grow, it will be what most people think of first, and for good reason.

The bike is good at almost everything, but not great at any one thing. Most international touring requires just this, a bike that can handle diverse road conditions and terrain. The image that we have of the trip and the reality are usually two different things, flexibility is key as no matter where you think you will go and what you think the riding conditions will be like, they will usually be different.

I rode one for about 35,000 km from TDF to Prudoe last year. The best thing I liked about it was that it handled very well on the tarmac and the gravel roads, and off road. For parts of the trip like in Patagonia or B.C. where the road can occasionally transition from good to bad to worse and back again, in a fairly short distance, this is where it shines. It'a actually a bit dangerous as it's easy to outride the conditions as it's not giving you the strong feedback signals that it can't handle the terrain that a different bike might when transitioning. A few times I found myself cranking along too fast for the variable conditions and had to slow down before you round the inevitable corner and the soft, deep gravel pitches you into the bush.

There are inevitable tradeoffs, in stock form it's not as comfortable for endless highway stretches as the more 'street' orientated bikes also in the loosely defined category of dual sports. I would put the DL1000 in this category, which I rode a similar distance through Europe and Africa. Very fine bike, excellent value and probably meets the needs of most riders. Not as good off road obviously, the 19" front means that you spend a bit of time occasionally rebending your skid plate, but it goes pretty much everywhere. (Note: Prices overseas though are higher than in the US for the DL).

In comparison to other bikes in the 'dirt' orientated side of the dual sport category, the 800 may not provide the high-high end performance levels of say a KTM, but close enough for all but the most discerning rider. So far it seems less finicky to maintain than the KTM, which for us lazy people is something to be aware of.

And comparing it to the thumpers is not totally fair because it costs more so should naturally be better in a few different ways, but the one discerning difference for me is that having two cylinders makes your days more enjoyable and much easier to ride longer days if you so desire. I rode a KLR in Russia/Mongolia and loved the value and utility of it, great bike for many things, but the vibrations can bother some more than others, more so if you like to ride longer days. Many however, don't notice it at all.

At the end of the day though, all bikes are perfectly fine and the choice you make doesn't really matter that much for a few seldom mentioned reasons:

a. The image in your mind of the hard core adventure that your trip will be is usually not the same as it is in reality. Many reasons for this, but you are getting a lot of adventure traveling in foreign places and many miles are filled with varying bits of adventure, like trying not to get run over by the crazed mini bus drivers or getting food poisoning. Your need to go off and push you and your bike to it's limits on way-out there trails fades pretty quick.

b. Your bike is loaded with a bunch of stuff that any sane person would take on a trip when you are far away from anything familiar. The weight of your luggage and panniers is pretty significant and any performance advantages of specific bike models are severly curtailed and they all end up handling pretty similar, or at least in a close perfomance band.

c. You have opposable thumbs, some semblance of intelligence, and are adaptable. If your bike is uncomfortable on the highways, you will adapt and ride shorter days. If it doesn't handle well in the gravel, you will adapt and ride slower. You'll be surprised that whatever bike you have, almost everyone rides the same route and ends up at the same place in a similar amount of time.

There are so many great makes and models out there now that the bikes you see on the road will be incredibly varied now and into the future. The days of only seeing only BMWs out there are gone, but in the future the most commonly occuring bike on the far away road, is going to be this one, and for good reason.

If someone asked me what bike to recommend for long distance touring on variable condition roads, for riding in developing countries, or if they didn’t actually have a clear idea where they were going and wanted the flexibility to do almost anything, I would recommend this bike. As people rack up more overseas miles and their needs and interests evolve, people can migrate to cruisers or classics or dirt bikes or side cars. Or stick with the same bike.

Hope that helps.

[QUOTE=MountainMan;229276]The 800GS will become the defacto bike of choice for RTW and long distance riding.

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

LOL, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, sigh, that is complete nonsense. It seems like long ago already but I rode RTW in ’07 and ’08 in different segments on a KLR650, a DL1000 and a GS800, so as a fan of whatever bike is the best one to ride for the ride regardless of make or model and having seen what people are actually riding out there, I respectfully and completely disagree with that comment.

If anyone is out of touch, it may be you I’m afraid. You should really get out there Patrick, it’s a big world extending beyond the borders of the US and Mexico and it changes fast. I can appreciate you are trying to glean information from websites and the such and maybe do the best you can with limited information, but my comments are based on recent experience and I don’t carry that intense brand allegiance or bias that seems to cloud your thoughts whenever the word BMW is mentioned. In the end, they are all just bikes, a means of transport for the adventure.

I won't drone on to point out the facts and the many areas where I completely disagree with your comments, the to and fro would detract from this thread, but feel free to pm me and we can discuss offline.

Suffice it to say, there are many great bikes to take you around the world or cross continents. Too many too discuss at length. They all have their limitations and their compromises.

It's not rocket science or a great visionary comment, the 800GS fits right into the middle ground of not too small, not too big, good on road, good off road, good performance, dual cylinder, and in most countries priced in the high middle of potential RTW bikes. (see below). The reason that successful businesses and political parties migrate to the middle of the bell curve, it's where most of the people are.

If you have done a big ride before and you know that you want to ride as much offroad as possible, you may want to look at something like the KTM 690 or 990. If you know that you want to ride the highway as much as possible, look at something like the street orientated dual sports such as the DL650 or the 650GS. If you want to ride highway and are two up, look at something like the DL1000 or the 1200GS. If like everyone else, you want a mix of everything, or don't know exactly how things will shake out, the 800GS is a no brainer selection.

And who knows whether the ultimate percentage of RTW bikes out there will be X% or 20% comprised of 800s & 650s. There are many bikes these days which are good and there are always more coming. The remainder of the market will be spread between many different old and new models. But this bike was actually designed and marketed with our market in mind and over time, it will become the most commonly occuring bike and the one be first on many peoples minds when they debate what to get. Doesn't mean eveyone will buy it or even a majority, but it will be more than any one other single model. For now, it's as close as it gets.

If anyone has any questions about bike selection, feel free to email or pm me, happy to help.

Canadian bike prices (MSRP):

Kawasaki KLR 650: $7,000
Suzuki DL650: $9,000
BMW650GS: $9,500
Suzuki DL1000: $12,000
BMW800GS: $12,250
KTM 990A: $17,000
BMW 1200GS: $17,000

You want to look at facts, look at this.

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Patrick,
Not all riders who do trips post their trips on ADVRider or the HUBB, hell quite a few don't bother. In my year travelling, more than half the other riders I met on my ride weren't on ADV or the HUBB...

Things are different offline...and sometimes we forget that...I think that's all MM is alluding to...I can't wait for the next opp!

MountainMan and I oddly enough met in UB...and BTW, his slander about me being a Finance guy is not fair, how do you think the Dutch got their bikes shipped for free?!?!
And why isn't the K75 mentioned as a RTW option?
JK...hope all is well in Vanc.

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edde
93 BMW K75s
www.motoedde.com

[QUOTE=MotoEdde
Not all riders who do trips post their trips on ADVRider or the HUBB, hell quite a few don't bother.

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Then get to the point and don't contradict yourself...its a waste of bandwidth!

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edde
93 BMW K75s
www.motoedde.com

LOL, oh Patrick, some things never change with you do they?J

To be specific, when you post comments that disregard peoples opinions by telling someone that “they are out of touch” when they have barely returned, it’s a bit rich to be thin skinned and defensive when they retort the same in return.

And please, don’t bludgeon us with the cut and paste pointless arguments, that does nothing more than give most of us a headache and dilutes what is otherwise an interesting thread.


Ride Reports & On Road Experiences

In short, ah Patrick, many people read ride reports but no one in their right mind would argue that the best experience isn’t actual hands on experience. Prior to the trip, most riders pour over old reports surf HU endlessly to try to gain some clarity on the countries they are visiting and the bikes and gear they will be using. Once on the road, they read less but they still try to go back and refresh their info on the upcoming country, and continue to visit HU whenever they can. Many times they use them to follow people they have met on the way.

And interestingly enough, many, many people keep right on reading reports and visiting HU and other sites when they return, probably the same reports and sites that everyone else is reading. Why? It keeps them connected to great memories, allows to relive it a bit, get updates on places that they have been and seen and give back to the community when it comes to hopefully helping others if they encounter similar problems. Plus it’s always a great way to waste time at work.

Time limits how much one can read, but what is the most interesting is when you can compare the ride reports to actual riding experience. From comparing and contrasting these two, you get a better feel for who is riding and who is actually writing. These two things are very different. Not everyone posts, in fact it is a small minority. If a person is using this as their main source of info of what is happening on the road, they are going to get a very narrow and select view of the world. Supplementing riding experience with ride reports helps make the picture more complete, but the primary source is getting out there and doing it.

And uh, yeah, you do run into a lot of people on the road for many routes. Places like eastern Russia toward Mongolia there is basically a main route (it’s called the Trans Siberian) and most people are on it or stopping at one of a few spots in Vlad or UB. With stops and meeting people on the way that have met other riders ahead or behind, you are roughly one degree of separation from most riders in a fairly broad time frame in the same area. Same goes for east coast of Africa. With the once a week ferry in Aswan, you pretty much meet the guys on your boat, the weeks previous boat you catch up in Khartoum, and the next weeks boaters as you are preparing to leave. After a couple of countries, you have met or again are one degree of separation from people ridng that route within a rough time frame encompassing a decent portion of that riding high season.

Demographics

As to the mystery demographic of young riders, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a bunch of them out there. As they may not post reports much or participate in sites such as this one, a good source would be to ask someone like Albert who meets a bunch of them when they come through. Another source would be StrikingViking as he gets to see a bunch of them as he has a very strong following in that demographic and on ADV in general. This would give us a decent snapshot of guys crossing into Mexico and who make it to South America. A simple data point would be to find out the numbers of people who have shipped their bike over the Darien over the last five years. Numbers probably have grown. ADV has been a great resource for people to post their trip experiences and it motivates more and more mainly US riders to take the plunge as well.

Key point though, it would also be critical to find out what is happening in Africa, Europe, Asia, and Australia. This is going to be much harder. It’s a big world, and it is easy to focus on one area like the US and use it to extrapolate, but every market is going to be very different.

Now the bigger questions, is this an expanding demographic or ar we just becoming more aware of this group through additional exposure here and on ADV? No one knows, any projection is based on anecdotal evidence at best. It was hard to track before, it’s hard to track now. Is the percentage of riders falling into this category compared to the overall cross continental and RTW riders greater, less, or the same? Extremely difficult to say. The overall traveller market was growing for many reasons, whether this subset is growing faster or slower in the uncertain future is not something anyone can say for certain.

And to close the loop, if it is growing faster or even staying the same, would these riders consider the 800GS? Maybe not new, but they are looking at a certain price point and can be a little bit flexible. They are not driven entirely by cost though, otherwise everyone would choose the sometimes not as sexy but dirt cheap options out there. Many examples out there but I’m sure Edde wonders why more people don’t choose the K75 the same way that Werner wonders why more people don’t choose the Dominator.

For almost everyone, there is an emotional component to owning a bike and that’s why people pay some premium to be able to do their trip in their own way, hence even the KLR can be considered an upgrade over the bare minimum and people are paying for it. In the future, they will also be able to choose from all the new models as they age and become used. That includes the Tenere and the 800. Will they spend the cash to get to a new model? Likely not. Will they reconsider when there are used options available? As every year goes by and the price comes down as they age, they will more and more. This years new bike model may become a used classic in just a few years.

But meanwhile, the other large markets of value buyers (who seek the best combination of price and performance) the the pure performance buyers (who seek simply the best performing bike) will evaluate the 800GS as one of their top two or three options. Most will buy something else (so many good options out there), but many will buy the 800/650 and this will be enough to become the most common single make/model. Again, this isn’t any grand pronouncement, it’s a pretty common view, especially when you consider how broadly the exact same model is being marketed in Europe, South Africa, North America, South America, and Australia for a pretty focussed target market.

KTM

Last point, but very critical for anyone contemplating a cross continent or RTW ride. A very clear example of how actual riders and bikes are not necessarily all reflected in what some consider our mainstream traveling websites, KTM is a prime example.

When I was in Africa the most commonly occuring bike make going down the continent was KTM. There’s probably a lot of reasons out there for this, race history, manufactured in Europe, etc. but it is pretty common for it’s riders to refer to the bike as the Africa bike. They are a pretty zealous bunch, not put off by the reputation for the bike to be maintenance intensive and would defend their choice extremely rigorously to say the least. They have a strong point as well, as the bikes have seen many a km of usage. More than a few have wandered down to South America or across to Russia as well.

We may not hear much about it over here, but there’s a very solid base of experience to comment from. They came from all over including Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Turkey, South Africa, England, Denmark, etc. I’ve often wondered why there aren’t more of them posting or even here lurking on this site to talk about their experiences. Could be there are more reports out there in a different language such as German or Dutch, could be that demographic doesn’t report as much, or could be that this site is most strongly followed in the UK and that’s not as big of a KTM country as other places in Europe. Maybe it is quite niche and the numbers get lost in the relative overall shuffle, don’t know.

Suffice it to say, they are out there, their riders swear by them, and if the what some would consider to be a premium cost is not a major concern for you, this make should be on any short list in particular if it suits your style of riding whether it be Africa or elsewhere. Again, this is not a world shattering view, anyone looking at it objectively will say the same thing.

Peace out.

Just finished an RTW tour on the 800. 21000 miles two rear flats and a headlight bulb which can hardly be blamed on BMW. The rocker cover leaked intermittently but this is a known issue and a tube of silicon cures the problem.
Some intermittent starting / cutting out probs which could have been fuel.
Roads in Mongolia and Siberia are non existent/deep gravel/ pot holed, rutted, washboarded and nothing fell off! Checking nuts and bolts regularly helped as did lubeing and adjusting the chain which lasted 17000 miles before repalcing it as a precaution.
Absolutely brilliant bike as long as you use an Air Hawk seat. Its a bit on the tall side and the "instant" throttle response can get you into trouble off road but beats the GS "Tractors" hands down in all departments.

i just part exed my f800 for a 1200gsa , mine was one of the first released and although i loved it to bits it had a few problems and a quite a few recalls ,it only had to sniff cheap fuel to develop a habit of stalling(and thats here in the uk)at 60mph it had a vibration enough to loosen fillings ,the seat was a recycled park bench,and yet i stilled loved it.
one of the only reasons i exchanged it was the price my local dealer OFFERED me, i lost about £500 pounds on it and came out of the deal with a 08 plate fully kitted gsa
the F800GS is a great bike and i will be looking for another one in the future, just the 1200 serves my needs better at the moment,im sure once the piggy bank is full again there will be another one in my garage

I am nearing the end of my Canada-Argentina trip on my F8. I feel I have learned greatly from my experiences along the way and perspectives have changed too.
I figured should quote this as it is probably the most educated and valuable posts in this statistical BS spewing thread and deserved not to be forgotten.

Interesting thread.
Seems more and more riders are heading out there now and despite Ewan & Charlie's BMW promo films, are not all choosing new BMW's. I think old Air heads might be more popular now? How come? Two reasons:
1. More are doing serious research into reality. 2. Budget.

The other point to remember is that the Long Way Round films barely made a ripple in the USA. Here Today, Gone Tomorrow! Many riders I know (they liked the films!) commented that Ewan and Charlie were clearly on the wrong bikes, and noted how they blew it with KTM. The fried GS scene didn't inspire much confidence either. Will newbies even get this? No.
And BMW's sales boost in the UK prove this beyond a doubt. People are dumb. Maybe they think BMW road service plan will retrieve them out in Africa?

The F800GS is a good bike, best machine BMW make, IMO. But it still has a few typical BMW issues it seems. I don't own this bike but two friends do. NO problems from either one. The F800 rides much lighter than it's true 490 lbs. wet weight (US MCN test). This makes it only about 35 lbs. lighter than a R1200GS. But feels smaller and lighter by far to me. I got to switch back and forth between a new R12GS and F8GS. I loved the F800GS, a really nice bike! Great road handling, little soft off road but pretty nice. Vibey on the highway over 70 mph.

I don't know about Europe, UK or S. Africa, but in my neighborhood I see more and more travelers heading out riding simple, cheap dual sport singles. The Kawasaki KLR650 still rates close to the most popular choice going among travelers on a budget, especially younger riders.

Older rich guys apparently can afford a new $16K us KTM 990, $15K us F800GS or $17K us R1200GS. If you can afford these bikes, take them!
They are ALL good. (priceless in fact! )

The F800GS costs about $15,000 usd, (and going UP) simply not in my budget and I don't finance motorcycles. I always figure there is a chance of losing the bike outright in the 3rd world. How much are you willing to risk? Does your theft insurance cover in Panama? Mine does not. I'm not suggesting taking a Postie, Moped or 50cc Chinese scooter (although more and more do!) but for me something more middle ground makes more sense. Several recent ride reports I've seen seem to reflect this.

If a ride will be on road only then any affordable bike will do and this becomes a pointless conversation. If going more dirt roads and tracks then any properly set up dual sport single out there will out perform a loaded up F800GS off road anyway. Make your dual sport single comfortable and now the advantage of the F800GS diminishes further. It's a great bike, a joy to ride, but in deep sand? mud? rocks and ruts a well set up, lightly loaded dual sport single will be easier to handle for most riders. It will also crash better and be cheaper and easier to run and maintain. Maybe this is why we even see so many former BMW riders switching to simple dual sport bikes, even 250's.

I don't need to cruise at 90 mph all day. A KLR is good at 70 mph and with a good seat and shield is OK for a 10 hour day in the rain, can hit potholes at full speed and get though sand, mud and slop fairly well with a decent rider aboard.