Big trip on XR400 & service interval concerns

[Cwac]

Hello good people of the Bike forums!

I'm planning a UK to NZ trip starting in the latter half of next year, I think I'm leaning towards Russia - Stans - KKH - Myanmar - SE Asia - Aus - Nz as a route.

I currently blat about on a KTM 690 Supermoto, yes I love it but it's imminently going to be replaced by whatever bike I will do the trip on so I can get used to working on it and do all the preventative/set up stuff gradually without feeling rushed.

In terms of choice I just keep coming back to the XR400.

Reasons; air cooled, kick start, carb, very light, extremely reliable if treated right and there seems to be at least 1 or 2 buyable ones popping up online every week here in the UK. Cheap for a decent example also.

I'm comfortable with the 5 speed 400 single format, I rode all around Australia with a DRZ400E for 6 months on road and dirt so I know roughly what I'm in for in that respect.

My only slight concern is the very short oil and filter interval. a bit of poking around forums reveals that I can probably stretch it out to maximum of 2200km, similar to what I was doing with the DRZ. It was fine in Australia, seemed like whenever I needed one there was a Suzuki shop to sell me an oil filter, a crush washer, a couple of litres of oil and they'd let me use their drain pan in the carpark.

I'm betting it's not that simple in remote places like Central Asia. What do the guys with little dirt bikes do on RTW rides? Just carry a bag full of oil filters and bottles of oil strapped to the bike or is that stuff available anywhere?

Should I be considering a bike with longer intervals?

Any input would be appreciated.

[Snakeboy]

You should definetively bring some oil filters with you. Those can be hard if not impossible to find where you go. Oil I wouldnt worry too much about. Most of those countries youre going through are filled up with small motorbikes - and thus there are oil available. If youre uncertain on a strecth you can of course carry oil for the next change. In Kazakhstan I didnt see many bikes so that might be the place to carry some oil. Kyrgizstan there are bike garages in Bishkek for sure so not a problem there. Dont know about Uzbek and Tadjik though. From Pakistan and further - India, Myanmar etc - plenty of bikes there so oil shoudnt be a problem.

You just have to research the specific route youre going. Maybe carry oil for one shift - so that you feel a little safer.

Good luck!

[mark manley]

As has been said motorcycle oil everywhere on your route and do carry a few spare filters. The service interval is short, the recommended interval on my XR125 is 4,000 km and that has no proper filter, I do it every 2,500 and would of thought the 400 would go longer, hopefully a 400 owner with more experience will be along to advise, a good choice by the way.

[Temporaryescapee]

I have not overlanded on an XR400 so will defer to others on that, but i did put 20,000kms or so on two (first one got nicked).

The standard service interval is 1,000 kms so you would be stretching it out. I am sure you can stretch it a bit but there's not a lot of oil in there so i'd be cautious.

Plenty of other things to do too - the seat's a plank, brakes are terrible, lighting is beyond terrible (no battery). Great to ride in the dirt but i sold mine - i couldn't live with the lack of electric start and acceptable lights for the long distance trials i was doing, let alone for a big trip. It's more single minded than a DRz i think.




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[Cwac]

Thanks for the responses everyone, so nice to have advice from people who have actually done this and aren't just guessing!

I always carry a 1L bottle for top ups, but I was just hoping that I wasn't going to have to lug around enough oil for like 2 changes, glad that I may have to occasionally carry an extra 2L but not very often, and I suppose not a big deal to keep 2/3 filters in a little corner of my tool box and buy them whenever I can.

Originally Posted by Temporaryescapee

I have not overlanded on an XR400 so will defer to others on that, but i did put 20,000kms or so on two (first one got nicked).

The standard service interval is 1,000 kms so you would be stretching it out. I am sure you can stretch it a bit but there's not a lot of oil in there so i'd be cautious.

Plenty of other things to do too - the seat's a plank, brakes are terrible, lighting is beyond terrible (no battery). Great to ride in the dirt but i sold mine - i couldn't live with the lack of electric start and acceptable lights for the long distance trials i was doing, let alone for a big trip. It's more single minded than a DRz i think.

I've noticed quite a few people who ride these bikes saying that the owner manual's recommendation of 600miles/1000kms is a conservative guide based on competition use with oil quality available in the mid 90s. The argument being that if you are thrumming along on a steady throttle and using much more durable modern oils, the bike shouldn't need such frequent changes but still important to keep an eye on the level and not let it get low. Don’t mind doing it more frequently if the oil is available but what’s your take on that?

Regarding the shortfalls of the bike, I’m thinking sheepskin on the plank, up rated stator and HID conversion (along with Reg/rec and capacitor for LED tail light, indicators and maybe 12v socket - if the uk bikes don’t already have that stuff), not sure about brakes, maybe sintered pads and braided lines? No E-start could be a pain occasionally, especially at altitude like Jmi points out, but the added simplicity and reduced weight is attractive.

I know I know, I’m trying to polish a turd and I should definitely buy an XT600E, but looking at photos of properly set up XRs there’s just something that makes me go...

[Walkabout]

Originally Posted by Cwac

and I suppose not a big deal to keep 2/3 filters in a little corner of my tool box and buy them whenever I can.



I've noticed quite a few people who ride these bikes saying that the owner manual's recommendation of 600miles/1000kms is a conservative guide based on competition use with oil quality available in the mid 90s. The argument being that if you are thrumming along on a steady throttle and using much more durable modern oils, the bike shouldn't need such frequent changes but still important to keep an eye on the level and not let it get low. Don’t mind doing it more frequently if the oil is available but what’s your take on that?

Never owned a XR, but out of curiosity are the filters,
a. All in one cartridge type, single use and dispose
b. Paper type "internals" inside a purpose made/designed part of the bike
c. Can you get a stainless steel re-cleanable insert in place of the type b?

(I have type c in my XT225 and it is easy enough to take it out and clean it when the oil is changed).

A few, random, thoughts:
It is not necessary to change/clean a filter every time the oil is changed.

It is not even necessary to change the oil as frequently as the book says, if it happens to be burning some in any case (as a single cyl can be prone to do) - gradually recycling the oil by topping up as required.

My XT225 contains a total of just 0.9 litre of oil so I keep a very close eye on the level - that is the key IMO.

Yep, lots of views about Enduro bike maintenance periods viz a viz use as a touring/travelling machine.
Is the XR400 considered to be an enduro, in it's day?

[Cwac]

Originally Posted by Walkabout

Never owned a XR, but out of curiosity are the filters,
a. All in one cartridge type, single use and dispose
b. Paper type "internals" inside a purpose made/designed part of the bike
c. Can you get a stainless steel re-cleanable insert in place of the type b?

(I have type c in my XT225 and it is easy enough to take it out and clean it when the oil is changed).

A few, random, thoughts:
It is not necessary to change/clean a filter every time the oil is changed.

It is not even necessary to change to oil as frequently as the book says, if it happens to be burning some in any case (as a single cyl can be prone to do) - gradually recycling the oil by topping up as required.

My XT225 contains a total of just 0.9 litre of oil so I keep a very close eye on the level - that is the key IMO.

Yep, lots of views about Enduro bike maintenance periods viz a viz use as a touring/travelling machine.
Is the XR400 considered to be an enduro, in it's day?

The bike takes type a, small disposable plastic cylinder with a fixed paper element.

I’ve always changed the filter with the oil every time, and my feeling is that if I’m doubling the recommended interval maybe I shouldn’t push my luck with further halving the filter change frequency, then again if I did what you say 3 or 4 paper filters is about 15,000km worth which would be awesome.

I did research the stainless filter idea for the DRZ, it seems to be a subject that divides opinion, I concluded that it would probably be alright but buying $5 paper filters was no real inconvenience for 100% certainty that my oil was being filtered properly. Looks like you can get them for the XR, might be worth investigating further.

Yeah in its day the XR400R was an enduro machine, when it started to struggle against the lighter DOHC liquid cooled competitors Honda brought out the CRF range to replace it. Obviously by today’s 105kg 50hp standards it looks more like a farm bike but still more performance than I dare fully use off road!

[Walkabout]

Originally Posted by Cwac

The bike takes type a, small disposable plastic cylinder with a fixed paper element.

I’ve always changed the filter with the oil every time, and my feeling is that if I’m doubling the recommended interval maybe I shouldn’t push my luck with further halving the filter change frequency, then again if I did what you say 3 or 4 paper filters is about 15,000km worth which would be awesome.

I did research the stainless filter idea for the DRZ, it seems to be a subject that divides opinion, I concluded that it would probably be alright but buying $5 paper filters was no real inconvenience for 100% certainty that my oil was being filtered properly. Looks like you can get them for the XR, might be worth investigating further.

Yeah in its day the XR400R was an enduro machine, when it started to struggle against the lighter DOHC liquid cooled competitors Honda brought out the CRF range to replace it. Obviously by today’s 105kg 50hp standards it looks more like a farm bike but still more performance than I dare fully use off road!

Thanks!
OTOH (there is always one of them) to the stainless steel filter argument, there are the anecdotes about paper filters falling apart with attendant bits of paper entering the oil ways.
Changing the filter every 1000Km, using high quality,"genuine", paper based filters, would provide peace of mind.

On balance, I tend to accept the argument that modern oils are far more capable than when the handbooks were written for 1990's bikes combined with the lack of "punishing" race conditions involved in travel use - all else being equal; excessive water crossings for instance.

[Temporaryescapee]

Originally Posted by Cwac

I've noticed quite a few people who ride these bikes saying that the owner manual's recommendation of 600miles/1000kms is a conservative guide based on competition use with oil quality available in the mid 90s. The argument being that if you are thrumming along on a steady throttle and using much more durable modern oils, the bike shouldn't need such frequent changes but still important to keep an eye on the level and not let it get low. Don’t mind doing it more frequently if the oil is available but what’s your take on that?

I'm no tech but that sounds reasonable

Originally Posted by Cwac

I've noticed quite a few people who ride these
Regarding the shortfalls of the bike, I’m thinking sheepskin on the plank, up rated stator and HID conversion (along with Reg/rec and capacitor for LED tail light, indicators and maybe 12v socket - if the uk bikes don’t already have that stuff), not sure about brakes, maybe sintered pads and braided lines? No E-start could be a pain occasionally, especially at altitude like Jmi points out, but the added simplicity and reduced weight is attractive.

Ive heard of others doing these upgrades - uk bikes have nothing - kick start, 35w headlight light, kick start. No ignition key or any aux power.

I recon braided lines would help.

Can be a real pig to start but ok once you know how and run it regularly. When you drop it use the decompressor or you'll be there all day

Originally Posted by Cwac

I know I know, I’m trying to polish a turd and I should definitely buy an XT600E, but looking at photos of properly set up XRs there’s just something that makes me go...

Fair enough - if it was just about being comfy we'd all take 4 wheels or stay at home!


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[mollydog]

Originally Posted by Cwac

I've noticed quite a few people who ride these bikes saying that the owner manual's recommendation of 600miles/1000kms is a conservative guide based on competition use with oil quality available in the mid 90s. The argument being that if you are thrumming along on a steady throttle and using much more durable modern oils, the bike shouldn't need such frequent changes but still important to keep an eye on the level and not let it get low. Don’t mind doing it more frequently if the oil is available but what’s your take on that?

Your research is correct. Originally the XR400 was a race bike (believe it or not!) It was raced in the Baja 1000 and Enduro events everywhere. It's race career was short lived ... but those oil change intervals are very conservative and were strictly set up for RACE bikes. So no doubt you can extend those intervals. Also, remember the XR400 has an OIL Cooler built in ... a big plus!

Plus, what you say about modern synthetic oils will also be a big factor. When I owned my XR400 not many riders used synthetic all the time. I used Semi-synthetic in my XR400. Now, synthetic oil is common. I'm sure you could easily go 3000 km. or MORE if taking it easy. Use FULL SYNTHETIC oil whenever possible. DO NOT used "energy saver" synthetic car oil ... it will cause your clutch to slip. But certain synthetic car oils are OK ... but be sure.

If running all day in deep sand, that's a different story.

Originally Posted by Cwac

Regarding the shortfalls of the bike, I’m thinking sheepskin on the plank, up rated stator and HID conversion (along with Reg/rec and capacitor for LED tail light, indicators and maybe 12v socket - if the uk bikes don’t already have that stuff), not sure about brakes, maybe sintered pads and braided lines? No E-start could be a pain occasionally, especially at altitude like Jmi points out, but the added simplicity and reduced weight is attractive.

All good but I don't think a Sheepskin cover will get you far when riding 10 hour days. Go for a real custom seat. HID is way to go, cheap and effective.

My XR400 had a Baja Designs lighting kit making it road legal. It used a small Ni-Cad battery. Worked great. But longest I ever rode my XR400 was on a Baja ride ... only 1500 miles over two weeks. FUN!

Now, I would recommend some sort of Li-Iron battery to supplement lighting and running accessories. Upgrading stator is a good idea to improve charging of Li-Iron battery and keeping everything bright and healthy. Li-Iron are amazing. Light, small, powerful.

Brakes are fine for your purpose.
Starting is only hard once bike is on it's side. Use decamp lever, kick it through 20 times with throttle WIDE OPEN/decomp held to clear out fuel. WORK!

Cold start is easy ... if you follow drill. Turn up idle, kick through gently with decamp IN, 5 times. Now, full choke, NO throttle, TDC and KICK!

It's always HOT starting that is the hard one once the bike has tipped over.

You can buy Stainless re-useable filters for the XR ... try Scott's.
Scotts Performance Products

NOTE type of filter and where it's located ... it's like a hundred other bikes.
Little paper filter, 5 minute change. (every other oil change)

[Temporaryescapee]

As always good info from Mollydog.

Only afterthought from me is that the oil filter cover bolts are not strong - the long one (rhs) easily shears - need to take side case off to get it out if it does. I changed these bolts every second oil filter change.l since this was a PITA.

Don't ask me how i know, suffice to say i now double check whether i i have set the torque wrench to lb/ft or Nms before starting....


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[backofbeyond]

I've not owned a 400 but I've had a 600 for a long time and most of the comments seem very (almost painfully) familiar.

The seat isn't really designed to be sat on. It's something just to park your backside on in between standing sessions. On its own I recon you get about half an hour before it feels uncomfortable and about two hours max before you feel like you're being split in half. A sheepskin isn't going to increase that by much. I once did a 2000 mile winter Eurotrip with the original seat and I can still feel the pain now.

The electrics are really rudimentary and lack of a proper battery with its ability to power tent lights, charge phones etc does become a real niggle after a while. There are ways round this - I diy'd a small 12v battery + regulator into the std generator but it's never going to be as good / reliable as a factory fit. The std generator was good enough to power the lights or my electrically heated jacket but not both at the same time. The lights themselves were close to useless, even when I managed to upgrade them to a 55w halogen bulb. Again, not impossible to fix but another area of expensive aftermarket substitution that only deals with half the problem (no lights with the engine off).

The 400 might cope with it better but the "reliability" of kickstarting isn't all it might be. The kickstart lever itself isn't the best bit of design Honda ever came up with and wears (and then snaps) around the pivot. I've had three of those levers and two have shown significant wear. I got thoroughly tired of routinely kickstarting the bike - especially as it has a tendency to stall at lights, road junctions etc. It would idle for ages and then stall the second you put it into gear.

Touring oil life is much longer than the minuscule mileages quoted. I've always worked on a 3000 mile interval and would be happy to extend that with a decent bike friendly synthetic. My rule of thumb has been to change it sooner if it's been ridden hard enough to use oil (high revs, hot temps etc). At normal speeds on open roads it doesn't use much at all between changes. A filter every second change and, as has been said, careful with the filter cover bolts.

Having used the 600 as a travel bike for many years I wouldn't go down the 400 route for a long trip these days as there are better options around, but equally there are worse ones. If you can get a decent one cheap enough and are happy to put the effort into overcoming its shortcomings (the subframe for example) then it it could do the job (= damning with faint praise)

[Cwac]

Originally Posted by mollydog

Plus, what you say about modern synthetic oils will also be a big factor. When I owned my XR400 not many riders used synthetic all the time. I used Semi-synthetic in my XR400. Now, synthetic oil is common. I'm sure you could easily go 3000 km. or MORE if taking it easy. Use FULL SYNTHETIC oil whenever possible. DO NOT used "energy saver" synthetic car oil ... it will cause your clutch to slip. But certain synthetic car oils are OK ... but be sure.

You can buy Stainless re-useable filters for the XR ... try Scott's.
Scotts Performance Products

NOTE type of filter and where it's located ... it's like a hundred other bikes.
Little paper filter, 5 minute change. (every other oil change)

So if I was eeking out 3000km between changes with very easygoing riding, would you say that it’s still ok to change the paper filter every other job? So every 6,000km?

Are the stainless ones any good? Easy to clean properly in a field with a head torch at night and no compressed air blower or bowl of mineral turps etc?

Originally Posted by Temporaryescapee

As always good info from Mollydog.

Only afterthought from me is that the oil filter cover bolts are not strong - the long one (rhs) easily shears - need to take side case off to get it out if it does. I changed these bolts every second oil filter change.l since this was a PITA.

I think that must be pretty common across a lot of bikes for those to be made of cheese - with the three filter cap bolts on the Suzuki I could only nip them up a quarter turn past finger tight before it felt like too much.

Originally Posted by backofbeyond

I've not owned a 400 but I've had a 600 for a long time and most of the comments seem very (almost painfully) familiar.

The seat isn't really designed to be sat on. It's something just to park your backside on in between standing sessions. On its own I recon you get about half an hour before it feels uncomfortable and about two hours max before you feel like you're being split in half. A sheepskin isn't going to increase that by much. I once did a 2000 mile winter Eurotrip with the original seat and I can still feel the pain now.

The electrics are really rudimentary and lack of a proper battery with its ability to power tent lights, charge phones etc does become a real niggle after a while. There are ways round this - I diy'd a small 12v battery + regulator into the std generator but it's never going to be as good / reliable as a factory fit. The std generator was good enough to power the lights or my electrically heated jacket but not both at the same time. The lights themselves were close to useless, even when I managed to upgrade them to a 55w halogen bulb. Again, not impossible to fix but another area of expensive aftermarket substitution that only deals with half the problem (no lights with the engine off).

The 400 might cope with it better but the "reliability" of kickstarting isn't all it might be. The kickstart lever itself isn't the best bit of design Honda ever came up with and wears (and then snaps) around the pivot. I've had three of those levers and two have shown significant wear. I got thoroughly tired of routinely kickstarting the bike - especially as it has a tendency to stall at lights, road junctions etc. It would idle for ages and then stall the second you put it into gear.

Touring oil life is much longer than the minuscule mileages quoted. I've always worked on a 3000 mile interval and would be happy to extend that with a decent bike friendly synthetic. My rule of thumb has been to change it sooner if it's been ridden hard enough to use oil (high revs, hot temps etc). At normal speeds on open roads it doesn't use much at all between changes. A filter every second change and, as has been said, careful with the filter cover bolts.

Having used the 600 as a travel bike for many years I wouldn't go down the 400 route for a long trip these days as there are better options around, but equally there are worse ones. If you can get a decent one cheap enough and are happy to put the effort into overcoming its shortcomings (the subframe for example) then it it could do the job (= damning with faint praise)

Thanks for your comments, I reckon experience with the 600R is definitely relevant to the 400R and I welcome discussions about irritating and problematic aspects of the bike, I’m not here looking for pats on the back about what a brilliant choice I’m about to make!

Having done some quick googling, looks like there are 2 or 3 options for nice squishy looking seats for about £100 delivered that will just bolt on, probably worth looking at that.

I’m in the middle of researching the electrical system. As a minimum I’d like to power a HID headlight, indicators, tail/brake light and a 12v auxiliary power supply to charge my phone on the move OR use my small air compressor with the bike running, and if I can find the wattage maybe heated grips but that might be a luxury I’ll have to do without. I have no need for power with the bike off, I tend to cope fine with an LED head torch. It can definitely be done, I don’t mind figuring things out and effectively building the system myself without buying an expensive aftermarket loom. Fully understanding the electrical system on my bike can’t be a bad thing when I’m on the move. In that sense the more rudimentary it is the better, as long as it’s tough.

Regarding the reliability of the kickstarter, do you know of any preventative fixes to toughen it up? I’m not expecting an XR to be unbreakable, in fact my choice is somewhat based on the “anything that can go wrong, will go wrong” principle and I feel that an air cooled kick-start Honda gives me the best chance of understanding a problem and putting it right myself, I’m not the cleverest bloke. Also there is waaaay more choice for 400Rs on eBay and Gumtree, it’s very rare that a 600R or a 650L comes up, and when one does it tends to look like it’s been at the bottom of a pond for 3 years. Would be nice to have a lighter bike if I stop somewhere for a while and get to do some trail riding with people too.

Originally Posted by Temporaryescapee

Fair enough - if it was just about being comfy we'd all take 4 wheels or stay at home!

Amen to that.

[Walkabout]

I guess I use a stainless filter because it was on the bike when I got it.
There are many, many views about the pros and cons - lots in the HUBB from memory.
I just back-rinse it in a bit of petrol when it is off.


If you do opt for paper then it is probably best to use OEM and certainly avoid cheap copies from unknown manufacturers with toilet paper innards.

[mollydog]

Originally Posted by Temporaryescapee

As always good info from Mollydog.

Only afterthought from me is that the oil filter cover bolts are not strong - the long one (rhs) easily shears - need to take side case off to get it out if it does. I changed these bolts every second oil filter change.l since this was a PITA.

Don't ask me how i know, suffice to say i now double check whether i i have set the torque wrench to lb/ft or Nms before starting....


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Spot on! They even mention this issue on the thousands of thread over on Thumper Talk ... in particular when using the Scott's Stainless filter. So beware,
those filter cover bolts will SNAP right off with little provocation. Solution?
I Loc Tite fasteners ... or you can insert stronger studs and use nuts to secure cover.