According to the specs I found the standard R100GS is 210kg with a full tank of fuel (23 litres or about 16kg) and the AT is 205kg dry. P/D version is 20kg heavier. I think the bhp figure is about the same as the AT.

I don't put much store in published weight specs. as some bikes feel light others feel like lead bricks. None of the twins on the list can really be called off road capable as they all weigh too much for ordinary riders to throw around with confidence.

Any bike will tackle gravel roads whether it has off road pretensions or not.

I suspected as much about the P/D - great-looking bike, and rare enough to get the 'collectors' salivating. OK, strike that one

I'd agree about the power issue. My Ducati (1000cc, 92 bhp) seemed a lot more powerful than my Bandit (1200cc, 100 bhp) just because the power came in much more suddenly and the torque launched it much quicker. I'd go for modest power and good torque any day, so your point is taken.

Thanks for the info about weights etc. Your point is proved by my experience with a Bonnie. I always felt it was a light-ish bike, but the next owner complained it was too heavy for him. When I checked, it was over 200 kg, but it carried its weight low and was quite manageable.

I'd disagree with your last comment, though. My Sprint is very capable on tarmac, but a nightmare on any loose surface - low, narrow bars and a forward riding position mean that you haven't a hope if the front decides to get away. I dropped mine (walking pace, little damage) on a piece of gravelly dirt at work. I can ride the XT across the same ground and it's loose but controllable, never a problem. I guess I am looking for a bike that's half-way between the two. I don't need full-on enduro handling, but a pure road bike is too limiting.

Thanks again, appreciated.

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2006 XT660R daily ride, 1994 XT600E about to be reborn, Blog: http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/

I ran my Bonneville on Heidenau tyres about as knobbly as you could get in the size limit and needing tubed. The difference over what the dealers fit on gravel tracks/rough roads is the difference between dragging your feet in first gear and bimbling along in third. The same roads on the F650 or XT600E I had before would be taken in any gear you liked. Fifty miles of Norwegian detour on the road tyres is hell, on the knobblies just part of the ride and on the "humped in the middle" type bikes a bit of fun.

The odd one is the Enfield which does just seem to go where you point it regardless (and slowly).

Andy

Yes, perhaps I should have said 'any bike with high wide handlebars will tackle gravel roads......' My Le Mans is a nightmare on a loose surface.

Spot on.

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2006 XT660R daily ride, 1994 XT600E about to be reborn, Blog: http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/

For 2 up in europe I've been very happy with my TDM850 although it was a bit cumbersome on the smaller tracks in Corsica. Back home in Canada where the TDM is not available I use a weestrom set up for gravel roads with skid plate, Shinko dual sport tyres etc. It'll take me and a full size passenger in comfort from Alaska to Mexico.

That's another vote for the TDM and the Wee. Forums like this are great - neither bike was really on my horizon when I started asking, but now they are firmly in the frame.

One thing - everyone says that the TDM (850 or 900) are under-rated and therefore cheap, but I have checked out the usual places and they seem to be quite pricey. I like the look of them, though.

Thanks!

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2006 XT660R daily ride, 1994 XT600E about to be reborn, Blog: http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/

I think the newer Tenere would fit your bill and as you are already a fan of XT's you will be familar with the workings and rough layout.

The pillion seat is comfy and it will pull 70-80 mph all day with pillion and luggage whilst still giving good mpg. It really is a go anywhere do anything bike. and they look really good as well

I just happen to know of one for sale that would fit your bill

see the bikes for sale section for my 2008 Tenere lovely bike but sadly i need the money

Another vote for the TDM. I've had an XT600, Transalp and now the TDM. The TDM is by far the better tourer. I find it a very economical, grunty, smooth & relaxed ride on long distance tours.

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A ship in the harbour is safe, but that\'s not what ships were built for. Anon

Thing is, the TDM is physically quite a big bike. The Sprint I have is all of those things (an astonishing 57 mpg (UK) average touring 2-up with luggage, cruising at 90-100 where possible) but I'm looking for something smaller and more manageable. I had a good look at (and a sit on) a 650 V-Strom yesterday, and that is quite big enough for me, I think.

My thoughts have crystallised a bit since my first post. The upright riding position is a must. In fact, I want my XT600E but with another 10-20 bhp, a better seat, and a bit better balance (i.e. less top-heavy) for carrying a passenger and luggage. The 660 Tenere would seem to tick most of those boxes, but I am keeping an open mind. Gotta sell the Sprint first!

Thank you for your thoughts.

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2006 XT660R daily ride, 1994 XT600E about to be reborn, Blog: http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/

Is the Teneré that confortable for a pillion? I think that this was a key point for your choice.

It was for me when I rented the V-Strom, otherwise be sure I would have gotten the Teneré, it's a cake, the more I know, the more I love it (well, add that some rentals accepted only 1 up with the Teneré -as the XT660-, but for Southern Africa on rougher roads).

Hi again
IMHO:if you travel long distance with passenger and luggage at decent speed and you want some comfort you need at least 70hp better 80-100 hp.
First rule:forget one cylinder.Even some two cyliner bikes have not enough power (Africa Twin...)
660 tenere is a nice bike,even "tourer" if you want but for one person and better for light off road then for motor way.5 hp more then XT600 (and also 40-50kg!) is simply not enough juice for two up,luggage and decent speed.
All big enduros are big bikes but usually not so heavy as real tourers.
TDM has only some 20 kg more then 660 Ten but also 30 hp more.
There is NO "XT600E" tourer with 70 hp,comfort....on the market today.
Perhaps the best numbers has 800GS,only the number before GBP(Eur)is not so good..

You are right, comfort is important, but even more important is the overall balance of the bike. Stuxtttr (post 22) reckons it's brilliant for a pillion, but then he's selling his! I would need to have a good look at one first. When I last saw a Ten I wasn't thinking of buying one, so I didn't really pay attention.

Sadly, you are right - my 'Super XT600' doesn't exist. Huge distances and speeds aren't really a concern. If they were, I would be keeping the Sprint, which does this very well. I'm more interested in keeping off the motorways and exploring, so the XT's ability to do a feet-up U-turn on loose gravel (which is what I do every day when I get home on it) is more important to me than bahnstorming across Europe. I take your point, though - around 70 bhp would be ideal. I guess the whole exercise is a compromise. I haven't written off the TDM by any means, but since I have been looking I haven't seen a single one on the road ...

(I'm even thinking of not replacing the Sprint but using the money to restore/refurbish the XT and make modifications that will bring it closer to what I need from a tourer. But that would leave me without a bike while I was doing the work, so it's probably not going to happen.)

Thanks again for all your thoughts - this thread is really helping me.

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2006 XT660R daily ride, 1994 XT600E about to be reborn, Blog: http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/

BlackDogZ,
Yes, the train of thoughts are helping me also; but it is quite old ground for me, and there is still no perfect solution.
Yam stopped producing the TDM around 2010 but there are still a few new ones for sale - this kind of tells us that they were never a big seller here in the UK, but overseas would be a different matter.

Anyway, the discussion about the perfection of 70 HP, and the other attributes of bikes, is pointing, increasingly, toward the BMW F650GS twin model.
Now that Beemer have announced the F700GS, the prices of the 650 version may drop a bit and make them better value.

Your super XT600 was produced as the XTZ750 twin of course; they come up on ebay now and again, usually with a few miles on the clocks (and who knows how many more that are not showing on the clock??).
And, when the engines are knackered some folks have fitted .............. wait for it, a TDM850 engine!!

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Dave

I did about 60k miles on a Suzuki GS500 on my own and about 10k two up and I am now riding an XTZ 750 two up. More power means more fun but I have to say the 48 something bhp the GS had was just as good for long term touring. All I can see is with the more bhp chain and sprockets, tyres and brake pads won't last too long. Comfort is much better but I could have just as well raised the handlebars on the GS. Plus I find a new problem almost every week... bearings gone, cable connectors melted, exhaust broken in half. Slowly, part by part I restored it now but I would have hated to find out about these things in Mauritania.

I would say, if you like your XT then get a better seat made for it, change whatever you don't like on it. You can do a complete overhaul instead of buying another bike and then you won't have to worry about hidden problems. Or get a GS500