This is just typical for BMW and I continue to wonder why they can't get the basics right.

I crossed the Sahara on a Yamaha RD350 in 1978, closely followed by 4 BMWs (2 * R90/6 and 2 * R90/S).

My Yamaha came out intact with no damage to forks or subframe.

Of the 4 BMs, 3 snapped their front forks off at the base of the lower triple clamp and all 4 snapped subframes.

30 years later and I watch "wrong way round" to see snapped subframes on GS12s, and now I read here about snapped forks on GS650s.

When, oh when will the BMW factory ever learn, and when oh when, will the poor suckers who keep buying their crap ever see the light.

Garry from Oz.

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Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman

Thanks for that last information. I was already put off BMW for many other reasons but now it's final and complete. Especially when Yamaha have the base covered. I can't be the only one who is shocked and more at the thought of the front collapsing anytime, anywhere! Then the company doesn't recall them?!!! Apart from this it reminds me not to take essential parts of any bike for granted. Linzi.

First of all, glad the injury was a lot less than it could have been and best wishes for a speedy recovery.

In a past life I worked for an effectively German company with various branded European customers and dealt with some similar issues. My area at the time was brakes, so obviously the potential for huge issues when there was anything going wrong.

To answer Garry's question as best I can, BMW will get it right when their teamwork improves. The company I worked for and all the big German customers are run by engineers and have a blame culture that would have scared Julius Cesar. The engineers rule and God help any mere customers contact who suggests they might be wrong. The reaction in BMW to the fork issues will have been;

1. It's not our fault, we are great engineers it must be the user.
2. No one in Germany who we know really well brought us any busted forks.
3. We don't make the forks we buy them, let the supplier sort it out. Oh, by the way, don't change anything we designed.
4. Hmmm, an interesting bit of metalurgy/stress analysis, this will get me my doctorate. Lets keep it secret so only our company learn from it.
5. Ok, we did the campaign change, lets get back to proper engineering and design yet another weird indicator control.

The next people in the pecking order below the engineers and the accountants who want to know why you are giving away forks and scrapping stock.

The Japanese customers (and those who accept the Japanese system) worked as teams. The team member for Sales would have screamed about next years figures if the product is wrong, the purchasing guy would have taken it rather personally that he might have not given the external supplier all the right info and the engineers jump at the chance to improve the product within the whole teams major aim of staying in business. It makes life hell for the suppliers but the product is almost always right. It only goes wrong when people high up ignore their teams and usually try and keep things secret for the sake of the company image.

Even the small manufacturers do it better IMHO. It may take time to get info to the MD of say Moto Guzzi, but when you do, he'll go down on the shop floor in person and kick the **** of the guy going anything wrong.

The part number thing mentioned on ADV rider I don't consider sneaky. The lower fork leg part drawing can be changed and the complete assembly simply up indexes. This saves production and parts people hassle once the change is finished, they mod two drawings not a thousand stores and service documents.

The statement from BMW Sales "I/we never heard of this.." I'm not keen on but is probably true. Dealing with this sort of stuff isn't easy and most people don't make a career out of it. The guy who phoned and probably his boss won't have heard of it. The files on the subject will be well burried until you get to the right person in Munich. If a lawyer challenged it you'd get a simple "our employees used the information they had at the time" answer.

I never came up with a way to beat the system on this except repeated contact and threats to publicise issues. Even if every F650 owner went to the dealer on the same day to check the recall had been done, you'd only annoy the sales team not the people who run the show.

While I hate to bash BMW, in this case buying an XT could be a very good solution.

Andy

Thank you for the insight, Andy!

I think the big thing in this case is that yes they changed the design, and yes they put the new design into production for all future product, but there is no recall, not even a service campaign, for swapping the older design of fork to the later design.

To err is human and all that. To have a few organisational problems accepting that you have a fault and then dealing with it is definitely sub-optimal. But putting a design change into production specifically to resolve a safety issue and not doing anything about the installed base of product in the field gives the appearance of the very worst kind of corporate cynicism to me.

Let us hope that publicity is the answer and that BMW relents under the public spotlight and initiates a recall!

Sorry, I mis read the stuff on ADV Rider. I thought there had been a recall not just a design change.

There are a couple of organisations in the UK who might convince BMW to sort this out before someone gets killed. The SMMT, Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders monitor most recall actions in the UK. BMW UK is a member. I'm sure if they were sent the photo's and information noted here on ADV Rider and on the chain gang they'd be able to pass them to someone who might use the phrase "class action" in a call to Munich. BMF (and MAG) also have contacts at BMW UK and would I'm sure be happy to contact them.

Have you sent MCN the photo's? I'm sure BMW read this comic (shouldn't be nasty to them, they might help someone in this case). If you like this idea do it before the others. There are people in all such big companies who use letters from the likes of SMMT to be ready for when the journo's come calling.

I mailed a couple of contacts to try and get some names at the above, so will come back if I can get to the bike people via the truck ones.

Andy

F***, that´s a nasty one. Cant put into words, how much hate the thought of totally losing control at speed, because of a technical fault. A nightmare.

If this really isnt an isolated case, and there really is an issue with these, BMW should spare no expenses, and take care of it with maximum urgency. It would be a good idea to try to get some media to react also (but first confirm that an issue with the design does exist).

You and me both!

Well, here's the pretty obvious design change...



...and here is what the guy who crashed on Ruta 40 in Argentina in January 2001 had to say on F650.com in 2005 about why BMW changed the design...

...and here is what a witness to the crash on Ruta 40 had to say about it here - alaska and back with one bad accident - BMWSportTouring Forums - after reading the Advrider thread...

Nobody has managed to trace 'Gertarg' yet, but there are very motivated people working very hard to do so. It has been confirmed to our satisfaction that his silence was a condition of the settlement he received, but he will be traced.

So anyway, I'm thinking that BMW certainly have at least a couple of teensy little questions to answer from all that. There may not be quite enough evidence in hand to actually hang them, but plenty enough to build the gallows and uncoil the rope!

Add it to the list !!!

I still cant belive how many people chose to use this god awful bike..BMW sure know how to market a product.

I know I sound like a broken record but i'd rather travel on a chinese scooter than an F650 GS.

BMW's response is also no shock.. Its the same old "Iv'e got your money now so i dont care" attitude people are used to.

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I am sure I don't need to point out to everyone that the BMW's in question here were all road models weighing about double the weight of the RD350. I also know of an R100RS (no fairing) that have traveled Africa more than once and have been across most of the globe doing more than 1 000 000Km.

Almost all BMW bikes were designed to be used on tar roads, or if you want, European road conditions. The suspensions fitted to all 1200GS's, F650's or even the F800GS has been designed to handle surfaced road conditions and even tough they can cope with a certain amount of off road use they will under perform in these conditions and if continuously used on heavy off road conditions they will fail.
I don't think BMW is denying the problem, which really have more to do with the marketing and PR department than with the engineers.
BMW like to sell their bikes using the Adventure image of the Camel man, but mostly their bikes are used for commuting and for fun rides close to home.

If you are doing hardcore off road traveling you are part of a really small group of riders not being catered for by the large OEM's as it is not financially viable to build bikes for this purpose. Most overlanders can't even afford a new R1200GS never mind a real off road tourer that might have to cost nearly double the price.

HPN is about the only factory producing hand built bikes in very small numbers for this purpose. The cost is astronomical but the bikes are superb and custom build around your needs and specifications.

Here is some of my personal experiences building my own bikes with modifications and parts from HPN.


YouTube - BMW GS by HPN; RIDE THE ADVENTURE

DIY your own bike, the HPN way.

BMW's are MADE to ride off road, or so their ad campaigns suggest. So they should be up to Pistes'. Most overheat that delicate electrical system.

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

The RD350 is also a road bike ,so the comparison is valid .

Most ,if not all ,of the GS650 fork failures mentioned were on metalled roads .
The bike was being used for the purpose for which it was designed, so the failures are inexcusable .
BMW's attitude,once again, leaves a lot to be desired .

What has any of this got to do with HPN who produce specialised motorcycles in very small numbers?
BTW the DIY thread mentions a problem with HPN bikes at and above the speed of 130 kph ,has this been resolved ?

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Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

It’s was not a HPN-related problem, check reply 73 (page 4).

Edit: Next post will be from Mollydog....

I gotta wonder about the S.A. guy and his basic skills when after his HPN customer (who later nearly dies) tells GS Workshop the bike wobbles at 130 kph and the GS doesn't solve the problem ... instead lets him ride away! In out back Africa, no less!
This guy in NOT NEW! He should have thought to swap out tires. This is so basic even a novice mechanic would have thought of it! Would you not agree?

So what is this guy doing "setting up" bikes for paying customers anyway? :confused1:

This guy is Wrong and should be LIABLE for not solving the problem before the customer ever rode the bike away. As you know, wobbles are not impossible to diagnose. One way or the other, they can be solved ... if time and care are taken by a skilled mechanic.

My guess is at least PART of the problem is in the geometry of the frame and set up of the bike. Something like: head angle, trail, rake, wheelbase, ride height, weight bias, head bearings .... now it's destroyed so no one will ever know for sure.
Something on that bike is screwed up. I've had some Michelin knobbies wobble but never cause loss of control or a complete tank slapper.

"REAL" bike manufacturers TEST bikes before selling them.


Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Patrick
We discussed via PM our differing opinions on what are acceptable/unacceptable references towards other HUBB users. My opinion is that the above are not acceptable.


From a personal angle I worry about calling others names which belittle them. IMHO, it implies that if others are fools/dumb asses, I am the expert. It's a dangerous strategy to claim to know everything. It's easy to end up with egg on your face. In my younger years many people described me as (an) arrogant (sh*t). I now try to be a little more humble.

Later. Am off to ride my bike.
Chris

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TBS.com

my offending post has been edited and made clean!

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!