Sure....any point of view is OK...but if your facts are wrong and your history or a bit off..May I point that out. Is that Ok? (by the way, I'm on drugs now)

Much of your post REPEATS what I've already said in earlier posts back in this thread. Check it out.

Thats funny, I didn't ever see Jap cars in the 60's or early 70's when I was in the UK. Far as I know, the Japs didn't do much at all with there cars there, even today you don't see many. Any Brit-O-Car-Files care to chime in?

Fact is, early Jap cars were stellar. Datsuns (Nissan), Toyota, Honda, simply
fantastic compared to the American (or any other car) cars of the time. I don't believe the UK had much experience with these cars back then....in the US we did, and millions of happy buyers made Nissan, Toyota and Honda what they are today. So I call BS on your claim, you are ignorant of the facts and I have about 20 million Americans who owned these early versions to back me up. Just because you bought some clapped out, used up, high mileage POS does not mean they were all that way. In the Us, they quickly went to the top in reliability. Hence there success today.

Yes, the finish sometimes aged, more so than a nice Bonnie, but the inards lasted. And if we want to talk about aging fast....lets look at Triumph top ends. Remember, there were about 5 or 6 times as many Triuimphs sold here than were in the UK. Fact. So we dumb ass Americans know something about Triumph of the 60's and 70's as well. This was the case for about 10 or 15 years. Logical, we have a much larger population, and Triumph's main focus was here, same with the Japanese companies. The Japanese all set up headquarters in my home town, Los Angeles.

The Z1? Man, they made plenty of useful bikes long before that mate. That was 1973! Same time the CB750 came along (a year earlier if I recall?)
I had plenty of decent handling Jap bikes in the 60's. CB160, CB250 Scrambler,
Suzuki X-6 Huslter, and more.

Don't agree about the electrics. I had Brit bikes from years: 1960 (Tiger Cub), '65 (Bonneville), '67 (Dayona 500), '70 (Rickman Metisse) '73 (TR-6) and my last...just sold a few years ago....'79 Bonneville Special. The Special was good. Only a few problems. Every other one caused problems, from Zenor diodes to blown bulbs, to broken/corroded wires...the lot. A great learning experience for me.

The only problem with several Jap bikes I had was a couple dead batteries and bad capacitor. Ride in rain all day and night. They just kept going.

You thought the CB125 Benely looked Chintzy? What about the CB400F in-line four? (I owned one)

I agree the early pressed metal frames and weird forks were crap. And as I said TWICE earlier.....the Brit bikes always out handled early Japanese bikes.
So, on those two issues we agree. I raced BOTH, so I have some
insight into this and its why I ended up on Bultacos and Hodakas. But my street bike? No question: HONDA. But soon the Japanese came on strong....by the end of the 70's they were dominant in every catagory of bike except cruisers.

You made a comment about British metalurgy...should I quote it back?

You'll never get me to say anything good about HD....but if you check racing history in the US, in certain types of racing, you see HD dominates. I'm talking about flat track which during the years in question was the most important motorcycle racing in the US.

Flat Track is where a few minor racing celebraties you may have heard of began....Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Randy Mamola, John Kocinski and a bunch more American Flat trackers cum GP heroes...including Nicky Hayden....who rode....an HD! (30 years later of course) Remember Mert Lawill? (my neighbor) from On Any Sunday? Mert rode HD.

So HD won quite a bit here and did pretty well at Daytona as well. But to the guys I hung around and grew up with the most important racing was GP and the Island...Kenny was a Rebel...and rode a Yamaha, even then.

Your right, I was just laying out a back ground of the scene leading up to the failures of these companies. I've read about the poor quality due to worker dissatisfaction. All true I'm sure. Shame.

Sorry about the mining reference...no offence meant. I am a 25 year union member...one of just a few now in the USA thanks to Bush and his ilk. But the point was to illustrate the sad state of Brit industry then. (now at least you've got Triumph and Formula One, Indy Car, CART and more. About 75% of Americans have no idea that both Indy Car and CART use chassis and motors (mostly) built and designed in the UK.

I disagree.
If you read some of the books by the experts, they contend the big boys at the top knew perfectly well what was coming and let it happen...taking govt. bail outs and subsidies all the way till the end. No matter....my main point is that the Brit industry was in decline and finally went away. The details of exactly how it happened, in this case, are not that important.

Hey, a good friend had the very last Meriden Triumph ...not sure what it was called...it was black, a 1981 manufacture (or maybe '80) and had ....now get this...Bing carbs!!! It was brand new...good clean castings on the motor, nice wheels, disc brakes and a very different look to the seat/tank. Anyone know more about this bike? I've never seen another....and to think.....I could have bought it...cheap!

This is kinda a wash...both sides won. Some guy named Mike Hailwood did pretty good on Hondas at Daytona, and Dick Mann eventually switched to Honda too, IIRC. Both sides won stuff....but by the mid 70's the Brits were about done. And how were the Brits doing in F-1 (motorGP) by the mid 70's. In fact, what was the factory team to compete in F-1? and when? To me, F-1 MotoGP is what counts. Daytona, American road racing, all minor players at that time.

Everyone knows the Brits build the best handling chassis in the world (IMO) and are still damn good today.
Yes, with a hotter motor, could have gone far. But who in motorcycle racing is winning on a British made chassis?

I got a bit different slant on the history from Mike (Michelle Duff) who I met a couple years ago to review her book. And don't forget Suzuki, they were in there too, big time. Check your results. Yam
never used Brit chassis, nor did Suzuki. Evil handling piece of Crap? The Jap bikes just finished more...that's all. Especially the four strokes. Remember the old racer adage: First, you have to finish. Duff raced Arter Matchless/Norton for years before going to Yam. Read her book. (he is a she!! and charming and still fast!)

Cars were in there for historical perspective on those years...and a comment on British motor industry in general, and relevant to making a point.
Back to you mate.

The Harrier is great...I've seen it in action! Not sure we still use it....I think we have our own? You are totally correct about the yanks destroying the Brit aircraft industry. Boeing/CIA/DIA/NSA ??? Who knows, but the whole history has all the ear marks of their work. Remember how new Brit planes kept crashing? A very nasty business.

Read back a few posts to see where I explain how the Japanese got started in racing and their expertise in reverse engineering...not an original design thought in their heads....but they are just SO anal about quality and about
refinement. This is where the superiority lies.

True about early 400-4 cam chains....many made noise and ran poorly but few
exploded. My 400-4 required a new one and frequent adjustment. That was in 1975....When Bonnevilles and BSA's were losing bearings, bending valves and leaking like a seive....just to keep comparisons equal.

I had a '63 step through, 3-speed girls model, no clutch...in 1963. I guess I was a little more self confident than to worry what my "mates" thought. Since I could out ride most of them....they never said a word.

Took those 50's on surf trips to Baja with our older brothers. I was too young to drive. I rode that Honda from Ensenada all the way to San Felipe on the Gulf and back. Then down the coast for miles and miles looking for surf spots. Through the desert too, on the beach and sometimes in the water (low tide).

Fly off the handle? Are you quite serious chap? You need to grow some thicker skin Dodgey. I didn't think I was flyng off the handle....just a little back and forth...very friendly, spirited discussion.
Sorry to see you get so defensive.

Patrick

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Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!