once the "Cardanshaft" splittered into pieces on my K100.
Every 10k KM the rear axle leaked all its oil (R1150). "Radialwellendichtring" the bill said.
The same R1150 had serious engine knocking probs. Couldn't be solved. Occured so often apparently that
bmw decided to introduce twin-spark from 2003 onwards... Bad luck for those with models '99-'02.

Two friends missed a motorcycle holiday respectively, because of a broken bmw gearbox (one R80, one R1150).

Another friend also needed a new R1150GS gearbox.

Unfortunately we trusted bmw, and didn't know the essential info that the only reliable bmw twin, is the R1100 built after '97.

My Suzuki had burnt electrics, friend of mine with complete burnt ECU. Suzuki electrics are legendary for me.

How about rectifiers on Hondas, or fuel pumps? Clutches on V-Stroms, broken rear frames on Yamahas, bent or twisted valves on Kawasaki bikes?


2 of the guys I know had output shaft grinded on Africa Twins after harder riding - needs complete engine crankcase split to replace the bits ($$$).

Just some time ago a Kawasaki went with 3 gears grinded in the gearbox. It's good he could ride on in 5th gear only (after 3 days of work on the road completely spliting the engine, taking the shafts out and grinded bald the rest of the gears to make the engine to rotate again)

Or did they perhaps all blindly believed and trusted all the japanese reliability hype that goes around?

R1100GS model is built from 1993 to 1999. And definitely it's not the only reliable twin from their line. Some stunning mileages and superb reliability reported on most of models, from R65 to R1200, UKGSer is a good reading from owners point of view. As said '97-'99 spec model has proven itself very reliable for me as an owner - not a "third party" speaker who hasn't had any direct experiences with it.

To sum up: you can always select out the bad examples and hype them up, on any maker. But to know the real-data about the reliability of different bikes is just too complex picture to handle, and frankly quite pointless discussion as pointed out by Warthog and others. It'll depend on the build quality, owner's riding style and maintenance regularity-quality, but there are also dozens of other factors in play. By claiming: "hey, that guy had a broken down bike, I saw it myself, and it was a BMW (or a Jap bike)" analogy gets you nowhere in overall picture of the things.

It’s a shame that you have problems with BMW Uganduro, especially since Uganda is a country suited for big powerful offroad bikes.

Uganda, a few days after the mileage exceeded 100 kkm, all internals engine, gearbox, cardan ++ are still original (except for a clutch change prior to the trip because I didn’t expect the clutch to last the entire trip).




BTW: It’s a 1996, mileage is 202kkm and gearbox never opened….

This is a very odd phenomena! BMW riders seem to need to justify not buying the Yamaha, Japanese riders seem to want to defend against not buying the BMW. The physcologists would have a ball! Purchase guilt?

As an ex-BMW owner I have no hard and fast feelings. Yes I hated BMW switch gear throughout both R1100's I had and both broke down through various bits of totally rubbish quality. Likewise I loved both my F650's and only had problems with the last one. So four BMW's and I sold three for reliability issues and one because I was stupid and though more power was a good thing. This is a very small sample!

I've owned (still own) MZ's and Urals. The former are a dream if you like two strokes the later a nightmare, but in the right circumstances I can see myself owning one of the new Urals just for the technology. I love my Triumph but no way is it flawless, the wiring is **** and the silencers should come with a dustpan and brush for the rust flakes. I wish I'd kept my XT it's only flaw was a really cheap exhaust system. I've had a lot to do with Guzzi's but would have another Triumph simply because they are easier to live with day to day because more people bought them.

There is no right answer for me until you look at the purchase price. The BMW's are overpriced by at least £2000 and to me that IS trading on the badge and the myth of better reliability. Others may have different stories and will make different choices but I won't pay the extra when I know the bikes have similar issues to the cheaper Japanese or other European version.

The black stories thing is common enough. I used to work in the truck brake industry even having some dealings with BMW on car stuff. The way any corporation manages issues is very similar. First you deny everything because most problems ARE caused by misuse and stupid customers or dealers. Second you can't do anything as solutions take time to develop so you wait. Finally you need need a controlled introduction of the fix that matches what you have available. From the customers point of view you look like you don't care, then you look like you don't know, then you seem to sneak out a solution. My German colleagues were always very poor at this and very slow which added to BMW's "reliability image" will get people talking. The Japanese were much slicker but lower key at everything, mostly the presentation, but in reality achieved roughly the same. Hence BMW can look like sneaky muppets and Yamaha sell factory tours to US businessmen who have quality issues of their own!

Bottom line though is back to the physcologists. Don't feel you need to justify your purchase. If you bought a BM and like it that's great, if you like the yam that's great too.

Andy

Did i say anywhere that japanese bikes are more reliable than others?

I only said there are similar mileage record setting bikes of all brands & countries.


Did I say anywhere that bmw doesn't know how to make reliable bikes?

On the contrary, I said the K75/K100 really are admirable.
(but the japanese copy is also very, very good (honda ST1100))
The rotax F650GS also appears impressive - though i appreciate the simplicity of an aircooled engine.


I do feel bad when people engage me in intellectually unfair discussions by wanting to have it both ways.
One can't at the same time:
- call someone a liar because he bases himself on industry reports (which do exist, also at bmw) and not on "personal experience".
- call arguments based on those very "personal experiences" pointless/useless because one would miss "the whole picture";
& disregard hundreds of "personal experiences", gathered and weighed in rider reports & forum polls.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words , well maybe a video is worth ten thousand !
YouTube - SUZUKI DL-BMW 1150GS

__________________
Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
"When you come to a fork in the road ,take it ! When you come to a spoon in the road ,take that also ."

Er, would this be a bad time to (re) post this??
YouTube - Hitler's got the wrong bike.

I agree with the latter part. I'm not native English, for me the fact said wrong is a lie, especially in the context of building someone's "bashing-scene" on it to make and find negative points. If the word 'lie' is too offensive somehow for native English speakers name me the alternative and I'll correct it.

And also agree on statistically weighted reports - BUT this must be done by unbiased organisation built up for statistical basis, not someone in the forum (and as said from my point of view: especially those who haven't owned a product but still try to rate them).

The only real-life reliability survey done I know on bike is the UK's 10,000 (statistical population selection) bikers surveyed back in 2004.

See here.

The results have been disputed many times here and in various other forums (i.e. BMW doesn't have any real offroad bikes that take the beating and are with short maintenance intervals etc factors of different makes), but there hasn't been any other hands-on survey on real-life reliability of motorcycles. That's the only statistics currently I know done on the reliability of bikes.

"Ride Magazine
English motorcycle magazine, Ride, has published their survey results amongst 10,000 motorcyclists in the United Kingdom in this month's publication.

The motorcyclists were asked how reliable their motorcycle is. Results:"

1. BMW (90%)
2. Honda (89.2%)
3. Yamaha (85.5%)
4. Triumph (84%)
5. Suzuki (83.2%)
6. Kawasaki (82.8%)
7. MZ (81.3%)
8. Harley-Davidson (80.1%)
9. Aprilia (77.1%)
10. KTM (74%)
11. Buell (72.2%)
12. Cagiva (70.5%)
13. Ducati (69.1%)
14. Moto Guzzi (68.8%)
15. CCM (63.8%)
"


As with any statistical result, it shows averages, anyone can interpret it in own way.

What?!? Moto Guzzi on 14th??! It can't be!

__________________
HansP
All you wanted to know
about riding in Norway

Hang on a minute!!

When the heck did Ural slip out of the top 10: they kept that one quiet....

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

But you're not. You have not provided anything, despite me asking for facts previously. This is only hearsay, at present.

Wow, two models! Well, I stand corrected. Two models from Japan have managed big miles: I must be wrong, then... As for HD. They are grotesquely under-tuned. 60bhp from a 1.3 litre engine? no wonder they keep going , although the Electra glide we met in Argentian had nothing but problems...
And I must say, do not know if you speak for the US market or world-wide, but US roads are hardly the most taxing on the vehicle, are they?

Not so. Admittedly Dealer costs are high, but that is a franchise dealer: the bikes them selves do not require you to go to a dealer. That said, I have been fleeced by a few Jap franchises too: that is a western view on customer service rather than the bike manufacturer. So no points to either on that count.

My boxer twin had oil changes every 6000 miles to the regular 3-4K for Jap bikes. Spares such as pads, filters and the like were very reasonalby priced compared to the ridiculous Jap spare prices. But then this is how Jap manufacturers make their money: from spares, rather than only initial bikes sales, but then you know, this being in the industry...

In all honesty, ALL BIKE running costs are now ridiculous, in my opinion. When an indicator lense costs you £16 for a bike, but £6 for a car, you know you ar getting shafted....

DO NOT PANIC! You are not being targeted by a small EU nation. I am merely an Estonian resident. I am of Anglo-Franco stock...

That statement does not make any sense, i'm afraid. They never said it was a breeze: they admitted on camera that the bikes were very heavy, but the bikes got them, Ewan and Claudio (off-road novices like me) through Siberia, carrying shed loads of, no doubt, pointless, kit. End of. There was no sly fim making. They left on BMs in London, 3 months later they arrived in New York on said BMs: I don't see how they are supposed to have pulled the wool over our eyes and on what count.

What does racing have to do with making good bikes for the real world?!?
I just don't get it.

The whole championships business: now there is a marketing ploy and you seem to be falling for it...
Renault are a very successful race team in F1, as are Ferrari. Neither can be said to make a particularly relaible road car manufacturer.
Winning races is not the Holy Grail of building good quality bikes for the consumer market: look at Ducati: beautiful, go like the clappers, but add a spot of rain, etc....

Is this why you dislike their product so? You don't like their style? As for the alleged Jap, quasi-racist attidtude to the non-Japanese.... I don't see how this affects a bike's build, but i can see how it might affect your view of a brand.

But I'm afraid I do not feel objectivity in your statements and points. This is why I have reacted to them: they are very strong points of view and not always backed-up with fact, so far, and so I feel I need to call you on that one. There is very little give in your view of BMWs. It also takes away credibility, something you claimed to be up-holding, when you make derogatory statements about the owners of BMs like they are dimwits of some sort.

From another thread I believe:

You can't expect people to take your opinion as objective, as a journalist, no less, with those sorts of deep-rooted pre-conceptions. As I responded last time: I am not a rich wannabee: I worked my @rse off for 3 years, to buy my bike, kit it up, ship it and ride it.



A good point and an interesting spectacle, but I'd like to make my own position clear: I have owned a number of bikes. Liked some and disliked other. Most were Japanese and they make excellent bikes, then there was the BM and now the Ural. These too are excellent bikes, but they are not the same market.

I do not actually feel that BMs are any better than Jap bikes, and vice versa.
What gets my back up is when I see an arguement that does not seem reasoned or objective: prejudiced in a word. A mite strong, perhaps, but its what springs to mind....

__________________
Adventure: it's an experience, not a style!
(so ride what you like, but ride it somewhere new!)

Mollydog, it would probably help focus the discussion (and enhance your own credibility) if you could post some sort of source for your claims about warranty repair frequencies and such. Absent this, you appear to be making a lot of unsubstantiated claims in a perhaps over-loud voice. This does not make your claims incorrect, necessarily, but neither does it contribute to making your case.

I would suggest also that comments about people's nationalities are likely to be taken as offensive by some—especially when those nationalities are only recently emerging from political and cultural domination by historically brutal outsiders. Estonia fits this description. Lighthearted joking about such matters by Americans is probably less than appropriate....unless intended to deepen misunderstandings and ill will.

I've benefited personally from many of your posts here. I have no doubts about the sincerity of your hard-won beliefs or about your riding skills and experience. Nor do I doubt your obvious eagerness to be of help to other riders on this board, including those less experienced and skilled than yourself. For these contributions, I thank you.

I hope my mild interjection is taken in the constructive spirit in which it is intended.

enjoy,

Mark
(a DL650 rider, as it happens, who does not quite see the point to BMW's)

hi all,

i am not sure if you take my words in to account, however, except first few threads all the discussions are off the topic.

let me remind you the topic: "BMW Dakar Vs F650GS" and not "jap bike vs bmw"

the best bike is the bike which is between your legs.

btw, my first bike was 97 make f650st and the engine blow up in 29000 miles. would i go again for bmw? yes, only if i could find one which costs same as xt660r

just my 2c.

enjoy riding, wheter it is a jap or bmw.. it is summer on the southers sphere!!

__________________
ozhan u.
website under construction

Thanks Mark,
I see some cultural stereotypes being exchanged back and forth here, I also see racist inferences being made regards "Jap" this and
"Jap" that. Where I grew up the use of the term "Jap" was not politically correct. I get in a hurry sometimes and use it too .... just as an abbreviation. But it can mean more, especially to my high school friends who grew up in the WW2 internment camps.

I know little about the newly formed "Republics" once part of the Soviet Union. But obviously Warthog and Margus are doing OK if they are riding BMW's and traveling around. They must be part of the elite few who've managed to reach the top.

Thanks Mark,
Glad I could offer something useful.

__________________
Patrick passed Dec 2018. RIP Patrick!

Oh WOW! Now this is 10 out of 10 points of bollocks and very shameful speculation (100% wrong also):

"part of the elite few who've managed to reach the top ... by whatever means necessary"

There lies your problem of all the discussion covered under BMW and other topics:

If you don't know anything about - can you please just shut up and stop speculating!?