Sorry if I implied criticism. If I am being critical of anyone it is the bike manufacturers. They obviously do their market research and from this they can see that the percentage of buyers of a given adventure model that are going on an extended overland trip is very small. That said, it seems to be big enough market for the likes of Touratech and other suppliers to make a business out of it.

I certainly don't advocate setting off on a long trip on a 20 year old bike, however, my point was that these bikes came from the factory much nearer 'ready to go' than the bikes that are being produced today. Manufacturers have, in my opinion, extended the 'Adventure' themed bikes to the point that they are so complex and heavy that they are not really viable for a trip with significant off road content (or very remote places without support). Bikes around 650cc seem to be much more suitable but apart from the Tenere there isn't anything available straight out of the crate.

So who cares? Well, my original point was that the need to modify even basic things on the bike makes the bike extremely expensive. Some of the wish lists I see on here and elsewhere just give me the impression that it's more about bolting on every conceivable part to make the bike perfect and then at the end of it all not having enough money left to travel - again, just my perception.

I have always enjoyed modifying bikes to make them 'fit for purpose'. We are generally much more demanding these days in terms of suspension, brakes, protection etc. so I can understand that the fit for purpose bar has been raised but my view is still that just because it's in the catalogue it doesn't make it essential.

I'm with you on this one. I've been looking for a Bonneville replacement. I can buy a Tenere and spend the first week of ownership stuffing bit of inner tube into the cush drive. I can get a Tiger and get someone to remap the FI. The thread about F800's is long. Consumable bikes for a consumer society.

Andy

Apologies for jumping on this one, but as I mentioned, the atmosphere that sometimes comes thru here of "old bike, do it cheap or you're a wanker" has become a real pet peeve of mine. I mentioned I knew several people who have abandoned the site because of that prevailing mentality and that feeling is also confirmed by deadly99 above.

I agree with you that the manufacturers have moved away from built for purpose bikes. But I disagree with you in the reference to Dakar bikes. The bikes were in the past a lot closer to purpose as long distance, off road capable travelling machines precisely because Honda, Yamaha, Cagiva, BMW and more recently KTM all based their adventure bikes in the 80s and 90s on Dakar bikes. The reason the modern bikes are less fit for purpose is because they have moved away from that Dakar / rallye bike capability. Building bikes that are strong enough, light enough, handle well enough and carry enough fuel to be rally worthy is also building bikes that are more adventure worthy. In my opinion there is a pretty close relationship between a good adventure bike and a rally bike, apart from the state of tune of the engine. That implies that to make a better off road capable, long distance capable adventure bike, you have to modify a standard bike in the direction of a rally bike. That goes for either if you start with a larger less off road capable bike, or a lighter off road bike that lacks durability.

I agree that its unfortunate that building a capable bike aftermarket is 20 times more expensive that if the OEM bike was specced with the same components. Then again, the manufacturers have the market research ... the segment is growing precisely because they are focussing on what the market wants. Big, heavy, bikes that are a real handful off-road and that dont really warrant good off-road capable suspension.

KTM keeps lowering the off road capabilities of its 990 model ... every second year it comes out with a more revvy engine, lower suspension travel, weaker rims ... and yet they keep selling them. Their 640 Adventure similarly was gradually diluted in terms its off road capabilities throughout its lifetime, and a replacement for it has been deemed not a priority for the last 4 years. I think there is just not a viable market for adventure bikes that are as capable off road as they are on road. You have to make them yourself.

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I think I understand the OP's view. If money is no object, why not get the BMW or KTM... but for most folks that's just not affordable. There are plenty of posters here who have toured through Africa or South America on beater 250s and even 125s.

If I had the money, I would probably get the high end "super adventure tourer" bike - but I don't have 15-20 grand for a bike, so when I go touring, I make do with whatever I can afford.

Better a cheap tour on a cheap bike than no touring at all...

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Bruce Clarke - 2020 Yamaha XV250

There are lots of different approaches to overland travel and individual ideas as to the ideal bike. I have my preference for a bike model that is no longer made over a modern bike which I also own but the reason's for my preference are hard to explain. I also automatically rule out most manufacturers as non starters for me, although there are many other makes out there working fine. I can't say I've noticed an anti modern bike phobia on here but I'm not very good at spotting these things.. I have seen a number of threads asking advice on a minimalist approach to to keep costs down usually involving a 125 or similar. These threads can come to abrupt end when the poster realises the alternator hasn't got enough power to charge the laptop, gps and Iphone at the same time - a sign of the times, I suppose.

I think for most people embarking on an overland adventure cost is a very important, if not the most important factor. If a suitable bike isn't already available then buying a fairly recent model is the only sensible approach as there is a better chance that major refurb. work won't be required. the only model that is vaguely ready to go is the Tenere but even so there are some serious weakpoints and shortcomings. The 20:1 aftermarket to OEM ratio is pretty scary plus virtually all models have some major shortcoming. For a first time traveller with no experience of what he may come across and no experience of riding or running a bike outside Europe, budget options are hard to find.

Ignoring cost, I agree that the modern rallye bike and ideal adventure bike have a lot in common although luggage carrying ability is also important on a travel bike which often conflicts with fuel tanks, exhausts etc.. But the rallye bike is designed for speed and mostly off road. A compromise has to be found in terms of road and off road ability and even then most overland trips are 80%+ on reasonable tarmac, a good percentage of the 'off-road' is easy going and you don't score more points for doing the tricky bits at speed. Howeevr, from my own experience, I would always opt for good off road handling over saving a few mpg through higher gearing (for example) because in many places you have the option of the unsurfaced route (through the moutains) or the tarmac road with all the trucks and saying we'll do all those dirt roads next time isn't an option - this is why you are travelling and why you're on a bike not in a Land Rover.

I'd be interested to see any tried and tested budget solutions based on something less than 10 years old or of anyone who has just bought it and ridden it (around the world)

I understand what Magnon is saying and I have never got the impression that if you can't do it with and old hack then bugger off from this site.

As others have said, cost is probably in the "top 3" limiting factor for most travellers. The advise that I have always got and tried to pass on is that yes you can buy any new bike, accessorise it and off you go. What's necessary and what is bling is another question. The feedback I have always wanted from a question was how did someone else do it and what did they think about it. Did they buy a bit, make one or found that they didn't need it all. This is always what I have got from this site.

If you have the money to buy all the bits, cool go for it. If you don't, finding out what others have found useful and making do is great too.

I think jumping on some ones opinion because its different is what makes these us and them scenarios. People are different so are their opinions and choices.

Clearly some people want older, less reliable (potentially more 'charming' I guess) bikes that you have to tinker with the whole time, and some people want more expensive, custom set ups that handle better - each to their own and more power to them!

But isn't it possible to combine the two?? By putting an old Triumph Engine in a custom competition off-road frame with some modern top-end suspension I hope to create the ultimate adventure bike, getting the best of both worlds - an expensive old unreliable bike that's good off road but still needs fixing all the time!!

The bike you ride is (or should be) chosen for a number of reasons. Budget,your own mechanical ability,purpose,your size,looks and feel. Personally i am lucky to be skilled mechanically but don't have a lot of spare money hanging about so i ride an older bike with mainly home-made mods and travel gear - indeed i get a lot of pleasure in the making of my bike.Some people have never even changed a spark plug before (and don't want to) so a new or very modern bike is the best choice for them (although it doesn't guarantee a hassle-free ride).A bike chosen for a road trip across the States would probably not be the same as you'd choose to ride across Africa.But whatever you ride it is important for you and the bike to be comfortable with each other as it'll be part of you for a considerable time. Only when you and the bike become one can you really relax and enjoy the trip for what it is.

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Just going for a short ride on my bike....

Traveller's who want to build and ride a special for their adventure usually have some experience. They know what they want from the trip, whether it's hardcore off road, good comfort for road miles, lots of luggae for comfortable long term camping etc.. these guys usually have the mechanical skills and enjoy tinkering with their creation on the journey and are often proving a point if only to themselves that the correct mix of parts has made the best bike possible for them.

If you have no previous experience you have to rely on sites like this one to pick up some good information and a strong bank balance to put it into practice but I still think that the manufacturers are missing a trick or two by not making an adventurised version of some of their smaller models. I'm not suggesting a bike that is ready to go but at least something that is a good basis for long distance travel with a good fuel capacity, good quality supension. a touring seat and some luggage options. Obviously the aftermarket suppliers would still be there to supply the more specialist items and solutions for some of the weakpoints.

I think it's hardly surprising that airhead BM's and Africa Twins are still so popular when the only other 'off the peg' options are £15k behemoths with too much of everything you don't need (weight, height, gadgets, cost etc.) and not enough on anything you do (suspension quality and travel, reliability, easy servicing etc.)

.

It is scary ... but I guess its the logistics of manufacturing wholesale and of retail distribution chains.

For example, my understanding is BMW pay at factory level, something like 27 EUR for a standard non ESA R1200GS rear shock from suppliers ... but it retails for 900 EUR at a BMW dealer.

I have heard BMW got the airshocks for the X-Challenges almost for free (I have even heard 'for free') because Continental made too many of them for the HP2 Enduro and just wanted to get rid of them since they didnt work that well and seemed to have no future ... yet they retail for something like 1200 EUR.

I am guessing BMW pay no more than 300-400 EUR to Loncin for an 650cc engine ... yet they are 7000 from a dealer if you want a replacement.

If you are a manufacturer, stuff costs next to nothing (by our retail standards) from suppliers. It costs so little at factory level to have good forks or a shock in the bike, but so much at the consumer end, especially if it is aftermarket. To have a good seat or good rims on the bike from the factory ... again a tiny increase, for us, it is hundreds.

The problem is us ... the buyers. We arent discerning enough to drive the manufacturers to include quality bits. The return on investment for manufacturers is to put 5 more hp on the bike ... cause people will pay thousands of pounds for 5 or 10 more horses or a flash new look. But in general, customers dont care enough about the quality or durability of components to make manufacturers use them.

The HP2 enduro is a prime example. When it came out it was about 5k more than the standard GS. Where does the 5k go? The bike had crap forks and a crap rear airshock ... but was sold as a HP (high performance) bike. When it came out the stock GS had 100 hp, the HP2 had 105. Basically the buyers were prepared to pay 5k for 5 extra hp. They sure as hell werent paying it for the suspension! Obviously the bike was a fair bit lighter with that suspension, and it had bigger wheels, but the wheels werent any better, just bigger. i.e. they wouldnt have cost BMW any more money.

So every year, the manufacturers respond to customers demands, and build bikes with slightly more power than the previous model. There is simply no driver to put better suspension on an adventure bike. And there is no driver in adventure bikes to make them lighter. Because the ones that sell the most, are the heaviest models. So that gives you an idea where adventure bikes are going from a manufacturers perspective ... more powerful, bigger and heavier. Cause that pays the bills. Thats why its more important for KTM to develop a 1200 Adventure model than to develop a 690 Adventure model. Its a pity, but thats the reality. And its a reality that we, the consumers, have created. I dont think we can blame the manufactures for this one.

I think the last bike that someone made that you could jump on in the showroom, ride it away from the dealer and head off round the world, was the 640 Adventure. And the sad reality is that it just didnt sell.

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So why didn't it sell enough ? Small market ? We are all tight ? Wasn't advertised enough ? Too lean on the profit margins ?

combination of buyers too tight and market too small I imagine.

A lot of people complain about the cost of adventurising a bike ... but for a reality check, have a look at what it costs a 4WD average prep for a drive to Capetown or Mongolia or Magadan ... £50k is a typical 4WD prep budget ... even for someone who starts off with a cheap old landrover.

Yet bikers wont spent 5k to prep a bike. Only a few spend 2k, and everyone else wants something to go round the world on that costs 2-3k all up. Is that realistic?

On one hand, yes you can buy and prep a bike to go round the world on 2k worth of bike, on the other hand, to spend 4-5k adventurising a bike is hardly excessive either. Thats a key point. Bikes are so cheap to prepare anyway, that even doing it really well is still a bargain.

We complain that so many of the adventure bikes being built now are the 'starbucks' adventure bikes. But who is to blame for that? Thats the only section of the adventure market prepared to spend any money.

Even the guys who are prepared to spend 15k to buy an "adventure bike" find it hard to comprehend someone who buys a bike for 3k and spends 4k it making a very purpose focussed adventure bike.

On another forum, a year or two back, we were talking about a potential KTM 690 Adventure that everyone claims to want. I mentioned bearing in mind the cost of changes that would need to be made to the 690 Enduro to make it work, and the base cost of the 690 Enduro, the 690 Adventure would have to come in at around GBP 9000. Would people be prepared to spend that on a well sorted single cylinder adventure bike? Suddenly everyone baulked.

There is a mentality that if the bike is light and single cylinder it cant possibly be worth as much as a heavier bike. Even if it is better for the job! So the reality is, if KTM made a 690 Adventure and put it on the market for 9k, 95% of potential customers would change their mind in the showroom, spend a grand more and get the 990 Adventure. Again its back to buyers associating "value" with "size" and "horsepower".

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The thing is that we all approach "bikes" from different viewpoints. Bike travel is supposed to be a cheaper form of transport, there are many countries around the world that show that. But quite realistically the cheaper the bike the less profit from sale. so you have to sell more, lots more or you sell a good number of the flavour of the month(s). It has already been said that when manufacturers put higher spec parts on the bike the price jumps massively. This would be to make up that profit margin, I would say. The people who can afford this jump in price and don't know if it is actually worth it in terms of return will always spend more that is not restricted to bikes. Have a look at the 4WD market, we have almost fully road based pretend 4WDs all over the place.

I think the reason we get what we do is because thats what the masses (in bike terms) are willing to pay for because they (the masses) don't know any better. Is a 15k heavy BMW worth it, I don't think so, will a 2-6k special do the same job, I think so. Will I look cooler on one rather than the other, more like an adventurer or like some famous person ? Do people buy it because they see others riding it, yes. Do manufactures take advantage of this, yes.

Do the manufactures have a responsibility to make a bike that is fit for purpose in a market that is a minority within a minority ?

I agree, but conversely, at the Enduro and Motocross end of the market the buyers are always looking for better equipment and, it seems, not too bothered about the cost. KTM have in the past fitted better equipment (White Power and Brembo competition stuff) to their adventure bikes but even they are supplying cheap replicas now and getting away with it.

Profit margins on the Starbucks tourers must be enormous

Here’s a thread with a similar title started back in 2003 and nibbled at once or twice over the years until 2009: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ding-bike-5122

It’s interesting to see how opinions on “perfect bikes” are both varied, but positively differing during the growth of the “adventure bike” market niche in the past 5 or 10 years.

I believe the perfect bike is the one that actually fulfils your needs, whatever they are. The important thing is that you actually have an adventure. For some it’s solo light weight off road, for others it’s 2 up on-road with the kitchen sink. It’s what you can afford and that actually floats your boat. This week even the Starbucks tourers can have an “adventure” negotiating the mean streets to their local skinny latte serving establishment in the war zones that are England’s burnt out city centres!

I’m glad that late 1980s and 1990s, particularly Japanese, bikes are so well built. That way I can afford to spend a couple of £grand a piece (or less) and have my solo lightweight minimal luggage offroad adventures (Suzuki DRZ400: actually it’s a 2005 bike!), as well as 2 up or solo pavement/gravel touring adventures with lots of luggage (Honda A/T and T/A), where all 3 bikes combined cost about a third of the price of one new fat blinged up 1200gsa/ktm990/xtz1200.

The points made above about buying costs of certain inadequate “accessories” in comparison to their retail price are IMHO quite shocking. Then again the Starbucks crowd are happy and BMW/KTM shareholders are happy, so why not. Each to their own.


An aside: What mustn’t be forgotten also is the cost of a CdP. A 2 year old (new price £15k) bike will require a mortgage (at least for me) to afford a CdP. A CdP for an older bike will be a lot less.

Cheers
Chris

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